Confederate Battle Flag
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 05:25:02 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  Political Debate (Moderator: Torie)
  Confederate Battle Flag
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5
Poll
Question: What does it mean to you?
#1
proud emblem of Southern heritage
 
#2
dark symbol of slavery and segregation
 
#3
other
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 104

Author Topic: Confederate Battle Flag  (Read 11884 times)
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,509
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: August 03, 2013, 06:57:27 PM »
« edited: August 03, 2013, 06:59:25 PM by Frodo »

It's been about eight years since the last time we had this kind of thread.

So, what does this flag



symbolize to you?
Logged
TDAS04
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,463
Bhutan


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 07:07:26 PM »

Logged
7,052,770
Harry
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 35,217
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 07:13:30 PM »
« Edited: August 03, 2013, 07:15:31 PM by Harry »

A symbol of traitors who tried to leave the United States for slavery.  Granted, the vast majority of Southern whites didn't own slaves, but (unless they individually stayed loyal to the Union) they did fight against the Union on behalf of the rights of the rich to own people.  Absolutely shameful.

Anyone who tries to argue "bbbbut it wasn't really about slavery!!1" is an apologist moron.

The fact that it's become the beloved symbol of Dixiecrats, the KKK, and other white supremacists should be a clue to the people who aren't sure...
Logged
DC Al Fine
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,085
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 07:33:49 PM »

About the same as this one



i.e. Negative but not super negative.

The way it's used by southerners as a regional flag doesn't bother me too much despite it's odious origins. The vast majority of the people don't approve of slavery unlike the people who use a Nazi Germany or USSR flag.

On another note there was large amounts of support for the Confederacy in Nova Scotia. The line of reasoning was "It'll keep the imperialist Yankees from invading us." These things can be multi-faceted. The Civil War was hardly a good vs evil struggle. It was a bunch of racist guys vs a bunch even more racist guys.
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 07:35:23 PM »

Other:
Both the Confederate and US flags were flags of slavery.  Tho the civil war was fought because of excessive Southern fears that the Republicans would attempt to end the peculiar institution. (Without the Civil War, slavery would have lasted at least another twenty years in the US and might well have continued into the 20th century.) Originally it was a proud symbol of southern heritage, but it became enmeshed in the segregation fight of the 50s and 60s and ever since then it has primarily been a dark symbol of segregation and white supremacy.
Logged
FEMA Camp Administrator
Cathcon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,284
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 07:42:48 PM »

Depends on for whom. I see it mainly as a symbol of treason, slavery, etc., though have considered buying a hat with it on it--eventually settled on a dream catcher rather than CSA or marijuana. People think they're being all proud and rebellious, etc. and is typically seen on things such as pickup trucks in rural areas around here--the more up North you go, the more Southern it gets. I'd advise not displaying it for a litany of reasons, though I doubt the s that have it care. Whatevs.
Logged
7,052,770
Harry
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 35,217
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 08:06:13 PM »

Other:
Both the Confederate and US flags were flags of slavery.

That argument just doesn't hold any water.  Yes, the U.S. flag has flown over just as many (well, more, really) atrocities.  But the U.S. flag stands for so much more than that.

In contrast, the only relevance of the Confederacy is that it attempted to break away from the U.S. out of fears that it would lose slavery.  Perhaps if the South had won the war, gone independent, but later cleaned up its act and became a freedom-loving first world country with the same flag, the Confederate flag would not be an offensive symbol.  Maybe Confederate soldiers would have helped storm the beaches at Normandy under that flag.  But that's not what actually happened, thus the Confederate flag only stands for a few elites who wanted so badly to keep owning people that they committed treason, and the legions of impressionable poors that blindly followed them.
Logged
H. Ross Peron
General Mung Beans
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,406
Korea, Republic of


Political Matrix
E: -6.58, S: -1.91

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 08:25:00 PM »

Logged
🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,663
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 08:49:50 PM »
« Edited: August 03, 2013, 08:52:37 PM by shua »

Other:
Both the Confederate and US flags were flags of slavery.

That argument just doesn't hold any water.  Yes, the U.S. flag has flown over just as many (well, more, really) atrocities.  But the U.S. flag stands for so much more than that.

In contrast, the only relevance of the Confederacy is that it attempted to break away from the U.S. out of fears that it would lose slavery.  Perhaps if the South had won the war, gone independent, but later cleaned up its act and became a freedom-loving first world country with the same flag, the Confederate flag would not be an offensive symbol.  Maybe Confederate soldiers would have helped storm the beaches at Normandy under that flag.  But that's not what actually happened, thus the Confederate flag only stands for a few elites who wanted so badly to keep owning people that they committed treason, and the legions of impressionable poors that blindly followed them.

It wasn't just the elites who had slaves. Even among poors who had no slaves support for the Confederacy isn't evidence of being impressionable or blindly following.  Aside from fears about a race war, they didn't want to have to compete for jobs or land or status with blacks. And they sure as hell didn't want the Yanks telling them what to do, and so many were willing to fight to defend their homeland against those they saw as meddling invaders.

As to the question of what the flag means, there's no way it's going to only mean one thing.  It depends on where and what it's used for. 
Logged
DC Al Fine
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,085
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 09:11:22 PM »

The idea of Americans calling people who violently secede from their country "traitors" is hilarious.
Logged
DC Al Fine
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,085
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 09:23:15 PM »

The idea of Americans calling people who violently secede from their country "traitors" is hilarious.

What else would we call them?

Not the name, the moral indignation of it all. It's used as an insult in the current context.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 09:29:21 PM »

The idea of Americans calling people who violently secede from their country "traitors" is hilarious.

I'd say hypocritical is a better adjective.  Unless you're just a giggly sort of person.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 09:40:11 PM »

Obviously the term "traitor" carries a radically different moral connotation in the second case.

Obviously.  Indeed, the legislature of South Carolina did nothing illegal when it decided to divorce itself from the United States.  That cannot be said about the British subjects we know as the Patriots who decided to take up arms against their king.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2013, 09:55:06 PM »

Hoisted on my own petard.  I dragged that out to give Ernest a hard time last week, didn't I?

Sure, if we're going to the length of finding an historical document showing that the officials of the nascent republic seeks out one of the English King's archenemies and has them sign a treaty which legitimizes the rebellion, then I think it's safe to say that I've made my point about your righteous indignation, real or imagined.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 10:09:10 PM »

Who was it that said "the English buy peace rather than make it?"  Of course the Parisians were happy to oblige, providing accomodations for such a treaty. 

Put more succinctly, rebellions that are successful are always legal.

Ah, I didn't jump in here to pick on the English or the French.  Or the Patriots, for that matter.  I just had the same fleeting thought that DC had, although he expressed it in a different way than I would.  Yes, as a matter of fact, the indignation is hypocritical, whether or not you care enough to come to terms with that. 

To the original question, which I guess I haven't answered, I'd have to say that it depends very much upon whom is flying it.  I'm tempted to go with other, in the sense that most of the times I've seen it I've been at some arena rock concerts with bands like Guns'n'Roses and Ted Nugent who generally thought of it neither as a symbol of regional pride nor as a "dark symbol of slavery" but rather as one of rebellion (albeit usually, to take Tom Petty out of context, without a clue.)
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2013, 10:38:47 PM »
« Edited: August 03, 2013, 10:49:13 PM by angus »


Until now, no one has mentioned the stars and bars in this thread.  To my knowledge, Statesrights was the only one who regularly featured it in his signature.  We are concerned with a very different design in this thread.


This is easy to understand if you're not preoccupied with trying to make excuses for why the continued use of that symbol should be acceptable.

I don't make excuses for tolerance.  It needs no excuses.  Unlike the flag, which has no intrinsic meaning, good or bad, acceptance not only of an individual's right to utilize symbols but also of his right to interpret them as he sees fit is, in my opinion, a quality that has intrinsic merit.

Dude, seriously, you have a middle finger in your signature.  In red.  Flashing.  All below a post talking about inauthenticity of purported moral beliefs.  I cannot believe that I or anyone should need to explain "acceptance of symbols" to you as if you were a little child.  

Logged
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,509
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2013, 11:35:25 PM »


Until now, no one has mentioned the stars and bars in this thread.  To my knowledge, Statesrights was the only one who regularly featured it in his signature.  We are concerned with a very different design in this thread.

Well, at least I've learned something from this exchange! I had not been aware of the nomenclature.
---------------------------

You may have noticed I was careful to specify the Confederate battle flag in the beginning of this thread as opposed to the lesser known (and less notorious) national flag of the early Confederacy:



Logged
Del Tachi
Republican95
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,709
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: 1.46

P P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2013, 11:35:54 PM »

There are no concrete meanings or ideas that can be attached to symbols.

The signifigance or meaning that an individual attaches to a symbol is an entirely personal choice and does not actually reflect anything inherent about the symbol itself.

Therefore, the Confederate flag can both be a positive or negative symbol at the same time.

Anyone who takes offense to it can simply alter the ideas that they attach to it. 
Logged
barfbag
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,611
United States


Political Matrix
E: 4.26, S: -0.87

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 11:44:17 PM »

The Confederacy was formed over states' rights. It was based on lifestyle, values and belief system. Its "way of life" became sacred to its adherents. Everything of the South became a moral question, commingling love of things Southern. Not only did national political parties split, but national churches and interstate. Families as well divided along sectional lines as the war approached. To say it was all a matter of slavery is both partisan and foolish. Brothers fought against and killed each other over this tragedy all because the north was aggressive in its politics to the point of making slaves out of the southerners as federal policies favored northern over southern economic interests. To this day it should be held that the federal government should not pick winners and losers. Helping a sector out in order to prevent other sectors from falling is one thing, but picking one sector to succeed over another based on politics isn't right. This is exactly what was going on. In a way it was 19th century earmarks. A century and a half later, I am one who holds the good fight to eliminate earmarks in order to prevent such travesties. The south wanted to have freedom because the north treated the south like second class citizens. I'm sure if those today who blurt out that the Civil War was about slavery knew what it was like to be treated like a second class citizen, they would wise up and appreciate the truth of history which was that the south was attacked by a viscous neighbor. Also how nationalistic are those who fought or would have fought for the Yankee states during the Civil War? The U.S. Constitution can be abandoned at any time by any state which chooses to do so. Across the world, the Confederacy was seen as a serious attempt at nationhood. Had the south won, international conflicts and even Hitler could've been stopped before the United States waited until it was politically convenient to become involved. Was it so much to ask for the south to ask for liberty from an oppressive government of oppressive policies towards them? All they wanted was their freedom. It was right for slavery to end though.
Logged
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Atlas Politician
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,135
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 04:06:41 AM »

     Slavery was bad, though so was invading the South over them trying to form their own country. It's government of the people, by the people, for the people...except if the people want out, in which case it's just tough [inks].
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 10:45:13 AM »

    Slavery was bad, though so was invading the South over them trying to form their own country. It's government of the people, by the people, for the people...except if the people want out, in which case it's just tough [inks].

I think I disagree.  I've thought about this and gone back and forth, but I think Lincoln deserves to be recognized as a hero for "saving the union."  Sure, the charge of tyranny was fair owing to the suspension of habeus corpus and martial law, but he certainly didn't deserve to be executed over that.  In any case, if the Republicans in congress had lost the stomach for war after those first two losses at Bull Run, or if Lincoln hadn't pursued the war in the first place, this continent would have reverted to being an imperial European playground.  The precedent for disunion would have been set.  Others would have followed, and nothing was really holding the confederacy together except a common loathing for the Republicans, so basically there would be no great American nation.  No counterbalance to the terrible ideologies and histories of Europe in the 20th century.  Who knows how history would have unfolded?  Likely, our lives would have been very different.  My grandparents all migrated to this country in the early 20th century, but likely that would not have happened if there was no land of opportunity to which to migrate.  We might all be running scared from German and Russian nukes right now in a bipolar fascist/communist world if the United States hadn't been preserved by Lincoln and the Republicans.

While I have nothing against the battle flag of the confederacy--or the swastikas that Hindus wear on their shirts and the many that adorn Buddhist temples in the Far East, or OC tattoo on California Penitentiary inmates, or the hammer and the sickle, or other symbols that seemed to have taken lives of their own in the minds of the people--I still think that the crushing of the rebellion, however legal it may have been, was very much in the best interests of the American people.
Logged
FEMA Camp Administrator
Cathcon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,284
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 11:40:11 AM »

The Confederacy was formed over states' rights. It was based on lifestyle, values and belief system. Its "way of life" became sacred to its adherents. Everything of the South became a moral question, commingling love of things Southern. Not only did national political parties split, but national churches and interstate. Families as well divided along sectional lines as the war approached. To say it was all a matter of slavery is both partisan and foolish. Brothers fought against and killed each other over this tragedy all because the north was aggressive in its politics to the point of making slaves out of the southerners as federal policies favored northern over southern economic interests. To this day it should be held that the federal government should not pick winners and losers. Helping a sector out in order to prevent other sectors from falling is one thing, but picking one sector to succeed over another based on politics isn't right. This is exactly what was going on. In a way it was 19th century earmarks. A century and a half later, I am one who holds the good fight to eliminate earmarks in order to prevent such travesties. The south wanted to have freedom because the north treated the south like second class citizens. I'm sure if those today who blurt out that the Civil War was about slavery knew what it was like to be treated like a second class citizen, they would wise up and appreciate the truth of history which was that the south was attacked by a viscous neighbor. Also how nationalistic are those who fought or would have fought for the Yankee states during the Civil War? The U.S. Constitution can be abandoned at any time by any state which chooses to do so. Across the world, the Confederacy was seen as a serious attempt at nationhood. Had the south won, international conflicts and even Hitler could've been stopped before the United States waited until it was politically convenient to become involved. Was it so much to ask for the south to ask for liberty from an oppressive government of oppressive policies towards them? All they wanted was their freedom. It was right for slavery to end though.

What were the federal policies that favored Northern over Southern interests? The fact that in the 1850's, Democratic "doughboys" were twice elected over anti-slavery candidates? Was it the election of two Southerners in the 1840's, one that managed to drastically expand the union and make way for slavery to flood into places like Texas? And do you consider it responsible statesmanship to merely allow your country to dissolve at will, especially after what was in obvious reaction to the most recent election? The South by-and-large supported the winning candidate in the last six of eight elections, and it was the Supreme Court that attempted to expand the Southern way of life North, not the opposite, through Dred Scott. But oh, should a Northerner in a Northern party win election, the losers have the right to merely leave the group, no matter what those in the North--New England in general was on the losing side of elections before 1860--think after each of the previous elections. How is democracy to function if anyone who doesn't like the result merely leaves?
Logged
Lief 🗽
Lief
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 44,875


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 11:55:43 AM »

Symbol of racism, should be illegal.
Logged
Redalgo
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,681
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 02:20:51 PM »

@Frodo:

The stars and bars represent Southern nationalism to me. I consider the symbol somewhat offensive since the CSA would hypothetically - in my opinion - be more opposed to my stances on a multitude of issues concerning individual liberty, social justice, the environment, economy, and international affairs than the USA is already. Yet it is also a bit heroic because I reckon a people ought to be self-deterministic and have a government that both serves their best interests and is accountable to them. So depending on the context of its flying I either consider the flag in question revolutionary and noble or chauvinistic and worthy of contempt.
Logged
barfbag
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,611
United States


Political Matrix
E: 4.26, S: -0.87

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 04:25:59 PM »

It's all about context. There's nothing wrong with representing values, independence, and states' rights, but slavery is wrong. It just depends on the person who has the flag.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.052 seconds with 14 queries.