Confederate Battle Flag

[angus]

The idea of Americans calling people who violently secede from their country "traitors" is hilarious.

I'd say hypocritical is a better adjective.  Unless you're just a giggly sort of person.

[angus]

Obviously the term "traitor" carries a radically different moral connotation in the second case.

Obviously.  Indeed, the legislature of South Carolina did nothing illegal when it decided to divorce itself from the United States.  That cannot be said about the British subjects we know as the Patriots who decided to take up arms against their king.

[angus]

Hoisted on my own petard.  I dragged that out to give Ernest a hard time last week, didn't I?

Sure, if we're going to the length of finding an historical document showing that the officials of the nascent republic seeks out one of the English King's archenemies and has them sign a treaty which legitimizes the rebellion, then I think it's safe to say that I've made my point about your righteous indignation, real or imagined.

[angus]

Who was it that said "the English buy peace rather than make it?"  Of course the Parisians were happy to oblige, providing accomodations for such a treaty. 

Put more succinctly, rebellions that are successful are always legal.

Ah, I didn't jump in here to pick on the English or the French.  Or the Patriots, for that matter.  I just had the same fleeting thought that DC had, although he expressed it in a different way than I would.  Yes, as a matter of fact, the indignation is hypocritical, whether or not you care enough to come to terms with that. 

To the original question, which I guess I haven't answered, I'd have to say that it depends very much upon whom is flying it.  I'm tempted to go with other, in the sense that most of the times I've seen it I've been at some arena rock concerts with bands like Guns'n'Roses and Ted Nugent who generally thought of it neither as a symbol of regional pride nor as a "dark symbol of slavery" but rather as one of rebellion (albeit usually, to take Tom Petty out of context, without a clue.)

[angus]

stars and bars

Until now, no one has mentioned the stars and bars in this thread.  To my knowledge, Statesrights was the only one who regularly featured it in his signature.  We are concerned with a very different design in this thread.

This is easy to understand if you're not preoccupied with trying to make excuses for why the continued use of that symbol should be acceptable.

I don't make excuses for tolerance.  It needs no excuses.  Unlike the flag, which has no intrinsic meaning, good or bad, acceptance not only of an individual's right to utilize symbols but also of his right to interpret them as he sees fit is, in my opinion, a quality that has intrinsic merit.

Dude, seriously, you have a middle finger in your signature.  In red.  Flashing.  All below a post talking about inauthenticity of purported moral beliefs.  I cannot believe that I or anyone should need to explain "acceptance of symbols" to you as if you were a little child.  

[angus]

    Slavery was bad, though so was invading the South over them trying to form their own country. It's government of the people, by the people, for the people...except if the people want out, in which case it's just tough [inks].

I think I disagree.  I've thought about this and gone back and forth, but I think Lincoln deserves to be recognized as a hero for "saving the union."  Sure, the charge of tyranny was fair owing to the suspension of habeus corpus and martial law, but he certainly didn't deserve to be executed over that.  In any case, if the Republicans in congress had lost the stomach for war after those first two losses at Bull Run, or if Lincoln hadn't pursued the war in the first place, this continent would have reverted to being an imperial European playground.  The precedent for disunion would have been set.  Others would have followed, and nothing was really holding the confederacy together except a common loathing for the Republicans, so basically there would be no great American nation.  No counterbalance to the terrible ideologies and histories of Europe in the 20th century.  Who knows how history would have unfolded?  Likely, our lives would have been very different.  My grandparents all migrated to this country in the early 20th century, but likely that would not have happened if there was no land of opportunity to which to migrate.  We might all be running scared from German and Russian nukes right now in a bipolar fascist/communist world if the United States hadn't been preserved by Lincoln and the Republicans.

While I have nothing against the battle flag of the confederacy--or the swastikas that Hindus wear on their shirts and the many that adorn Buddhist temples in the Far East, or OC tattoo on California Penitentiary inmates, or the hammer and the sickle, or other symbols that seemed to have taken lives of their own in the minds of the people--I still think that the crushing of the rebellion, however legal it may have been, was very much in the best interests of the American people.

[angus]

There are no concrete meanings or ideas that can be attached to symbols.

you have made his point very well, in fact.  

Here, for example are the hoods and robes.  What meaning is intrinsically attached to them?  I don't know, let's ask this procession of folks celebrating Holy Week in Spain.



Here, is a swastika in a circle.  What meaning is intrinsically attached to it?  I don't know, let's ask this observant Hindu family celebrating Diwali in India.



If you don't like the broken cross, then what about the intrinsic meaning in a burning cross?  Let's ask these folks taking part in the procession of the Martyr's Crosses.



These symbols have the meaning that those who display them ascribe.  Nothing more, except in your mind.  You are free not to display them, but to cast aspersions upon all who do is narrow-minded and intolerant.  Same with the CSA naval jack or battle flag.  You should know this, as it was, until about 10 years ago, a prominent part of the flag of the great state of Georgia.  Now, the actual Stars'n'Bars of the CSA is the design upon which that state's flag is based, but maybe not for long.  The same voices of who decided that the battle flag wasn't correct thinking will probably also one day decide that the current symbol is not correct either.  Good thing we have folks telling us what to think.

[angus]

fair enough.  also, the whole thread's a tangent.  

not to make excuses but it's really a bitch to type right now.  I cut the hell out of my left index finger last night.  To the bone.  I cutting a huge steak into tiny bits to make a nice meat dish and like a dumbass I held the meat in one hand while slamming down with the cleaver in the other.  Luckily all my digits are still attached.  It bled profusely.  Luckily I had lots of vodka.  My wife kept trying to take me to a physician but I'm a terrible patient and try to avoid clinics whenever possible.  We finally stopped the bleeding, and I took a bunch of antibiotics which we brought back from China--although they were probably rendered useless by the large quantity of ethyl alcohol in my stomach.  Copious quantities of h2o2, isopeopyl alcohol, and neosporin as kept it from turning green and falling off I suppose.  The bleeding has stopped.  It's ugly, but healing and I'm keeping it dry and clean.  Anyway, now I've got a huge bandage on the finger that usually types the t, g, b, v, f,r 4, and 5, so it's a bitvh to type.  searching and posting images was especially challenging.

Just as well.  Not much more to say.  I'll agree with your comment in the last sentence and leave it on a note of concurrence.