French presidential election, 2012

[Velasco]

I picked Eva Joly, by default and despite her horrible glasses. IRL and without hindsight (i.e. in the election day), my vote likely would have been for Joly or Hollande in the First Round. The choice in the Second Round would have been obvious. I see Mélenchon somewhat sectarian to vote for him (sorry, fellow lefties), at least in that election. Today I really don't know, it would be hard voting for Hollande again. I see above clear signs of how dangerous is Panzergirl. Europe is a cesspool, but History teaches the neofascist temptation is far worse. Otherwise, no comment.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Wow. I can't believe someone as smart as you is actually falling for the FN's blatantly hypocritical posturing. This trick is as old as the hills, for God's sake. Reactionaries who don't give a sh*t about the "common man" disguise themselves as populists because that's the only way they can ever gain any political influence. That's the exact same tactics the clericalo-fascist French far-right of the 1930s used. Except that if you actually look at the FN's economic program, there is absolutely nothing about strengthening the Welfare State, or reviving the health and education systems, or to improve the economic conditions of working families. Actually, they have absolutely no idea what to do in that regard. Their only plan to create jobs consists in kicking immigrants out (because yeah, it's well know DEY R TAKING R JOBZ). And yeah sure, they want to get rid of EU - if you actually think that's a good idea, I'm glad you can't vote in a European country.

Now, I know that the blatant fakeness of the FN's populism might be a bit harder to spot for foreigners who only know French politics from the outside. But since you are actually lecturing me about what the FN really is, forgive me if I roll my eyes.

I'm not trying to "lecture" anyone, yes, I understand the history of much of the European far-right, and nothing in that post responding to you meant to sugar coat anything about Front National. And yes, I can hardly wait for the deluge of holier than thou Hashemite posts which I've inevitably made myself a huge blinking red target for. But all I meant to suggest there is that Hollande is yet another self defeating soft-center-leftist in a long line of self defeating soft-center-leftists around the world, and were I some sort of hypothetical french voter that I quite clearly am not, there is a part of me that would be quite tempted to do the political equivalent of prank-pulling the fire alarm and vote for Le Pen against Hollande in the hope that something might come out of it, in the understanding that she would probably have her hands tied for the most part in terms of domestic policy anyway.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Wow. I can't believe someone as smart as you is actually falling for the FN's blatantly hypocritical posturing. This trick is as old as the hills, for God's sake. Reactionaries who don't give a sh*t about the "common man" disguise themselves as populists because that's the only way they can ever gain any political influence. That's the exact same tactics the clericalo-fascist French far-right of the 1930s used. Except that if you actually look at the FN's economic program, there is absolutely nothing about strengthening the Welfare State, or reviving the health and education systems, or to improve the economic conditions of working families. Actually, they have absolutely no idea what to do in that regard. Their only plan to create jobs consists in kicking immigrants out (because yeah, it's well know DEY R TAKING R JOBZ). And yeah sure, they want to get rid of EU - if you actually think that's a good idea, I'm glad you can't vote in a European country.

Now, I know that the blatant fakeness of the FN's populism might be a bit harder to spot for foreigners who only know French politics from the outside. But since you are actually lecturing me about what the FN really is, forgive me if I roll my eyes.

I'm not trying to "lecture" anyone, yes, I understand the history of much of the European far-right, and nothing in that post responding to you meant to sugar coat anything about Front National. And yes, I can hardly wait for the deluge of holier than thou Hashemite posts which I've inevitably made myself a huge blinking red target for. But all I meant to suggest there is that Hollande is yet another self defeating soft-center-leftist in a long line of self defeating soft-center-leftists around the world, and were I some sort of hypothetical french voter that I quite clearly am not, there is a part of me that would be quite tempted to do the political equivalent of prank-pulling the fire alarm and vote for Le Pen against Hollande in the hope that something might come out of it, in the understanding that she would probably have her hands tied for the most part in terms of domestic policy anyway.

Well it's not like France really needs you for that matter, since FN is at record heights. And as you can see, this hasn't really pushed Hollande to the left... If anything, the FN's strength is pushing the whole political spectrum to the right, especially on immigration and "law and order" issues, with terrible human and societal consequences.

Now yeah, you know I'm no fan of Hollande or anyone in the modern western center-left. But the idea that wishy-washy Third Wayism is somehow worse than authoritarian, xenophobic, reactionary and fundamentally hypocrtitical populism (especially from a left-wing perspective) is one I absolutely can't wrap my head around. The "deluge of holier than thou Hashemite posts" is in this case fully deserved.

[Hash]

Don't worry, I have absolutely no interest in responding to your posts. If you wish to pretend like you're the in-house expert on everything and anything FN, then go ahead. I really have much better things to do.

Besides, if anything, you're the one who's "holier than thou" in this thread.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I love how I'm the one pretending I'm the expert on things when I'm totally not, and making absolutely clear, in multiple posts, that I'm just some random American on the internet and my opinions (which have been set up in this bizarre fantasy what-if scenario that would never actually happen) are nothing but that.

Truly, I am the most dangerous fascist of our time.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I seriously hope Marokai is just baiting us. Otherwise, an argument "FN isn't that bad, not like they want to exterminate the Muslims (just [insert here])" is curious at best. What would be next? "Golden Dawn isn't that bad"? "True Finns aren't that bad"?

Amazingly, this comes from an American leftist that has no warm feeling for Tea Party. What kind of selective logic is that?

Also, the level of hatred toward the EU, as displayed by a number of American Democrats there (I stopped to care about American rightist posters babbling on the issue years ago) never ceases to amaze me. Ironically, Merkel way did more to damage the EU than "that evil Flanby", but I guess some people would need to actually do some research on the topic to understand.

[Leftbehind]

Also, the level of hatred toward the EU, as displayed by a number of American Democrats there (I stopped to care about American rightist posters babbling on the issue years ago) never ceases to amaze me. Ironically, Merkel way did more to damage the EU than "that evil Flanby", but I guess some people would need to actually do some research on the topic to understand.

I don't really understand your point here. Sure, Merkel's damaged the EU, but in such a way as to reaffirm to the Left just what a malign influence it really is. Flanby has had little impact on the EU, and as such has neither damaged it or improved it. Mainly he's hamstrung by his support for it, much like the Left has been persistently for decades, and why there's a temptation to vote fascist to get out of it (personally I wouldn't vote Le Pen over Hollande, because any departure would be temporary whilst both mainstream parties support it, and you're letting in fascists).  

Well it's not like France really needs you for that matter, since FN is at record heights. And as you can see, this hasn't really pushed Hollande to the left... If anything, the FN's strength is pushing the whole political spectrum to the right, especially on immigration and "law and order" issues, with terrible human and societal consequences.

Now yeah, you know I'm no fan of Hollande or anyone in the modern western center-left. But the idea that wishy-washy Third Wayism is somehow worse than authoritarian, xenophobic, reactionary and fundamentally hypocrtitical populism (especially from a left-wing perspective) is one I absolutely can't wrap my head around. The "deluge of holier than thou Hashemite posts" is in this case fully deserved.

I'd posit one begets the other - liberalism of the Third Way kind drives the working class into the latter's hands, and those liberals then end up having to ape them to win back support anyway.

[Redalgo]

Mélenchon for me. Joly would be a lot more appealing if not for her anti-nuclear position.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Also, the level of hatred toward the EU, as displayed by a number of American Democrats there (I stopped to care about American rightist posters babbling on the issue years ago) never ceases to amaze me. Ironically, Merkel way did more to damage the EU than "that evil Flanby", but I guess some people would need to actually do some research on the topic to understand.

I don't really understand your point here. Sure, Merkel's damaged the EU, but in such a way as to reaffirm to the Left just what a malign influence it really is. Flanby has had little impact on the EU, and as such has neither damaged it or improved it.

Sarkozy destroyed the French-German partnership (remember tandems such as de Gaulle-Adenauer, Giscard-Schmidt, Mitterrand-Kohl and Chirac-Schroeder), instead submissing himself to Merkel in pretty much every thing. I know it's a minimalistic view (yet we kind of live in minimalistic times), but Flanby is still an improvement.