If Bush's invasion of Iraq leads to a domino effect of Democracy...

[TheWildCard]

Discuss!

[phk]

What if leads to more theocracies?

[Moooooo]

I wouldnt say one of the greatest.  He still couldnt walk a day in the shoes of Roosevelt, Lincoln, Washington or Reagan.  But he will definitley have a more favorable impression then he does now.  Top 10 maybe?

[opebo]

Why should I care about the form of government in countries with such horrible cultures I'll never go there as a tourist.

[Gabu]

Generally, national leaders are regarded as "great" by the citizens of the nation a lot more for doing things that directly benefit the nation itself than for doing things that benefit other people and only indirectly benefit the nation in a way that would likely be over the head of the average person.  If his foreign policy attains vindication by becoming a resounding success, he certainly will be remembered as a great president, but I doubt one of the greatest; his domestic policies so far have only been so-so at best.  Plus, he's never really given any memorable quotes (okay, any memorable quotes that put him in a positive light), which, while it may seem trivial, is probably a big hit against him as far as history goes.

[Jake]

If that is the case and Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt, etc move to democracy, George Bush most likely will not be regarded as the one who made it happen.  Bush is destined to be one of the top 20 presidents and possibly in the top 10, but I just can't see him getting the kind of recognition FDR and Churchill get as the defenders of freedom.

[ECA]

He won't be seen as the one who made it happen, nor should he be, but he will be regarded as one of many leaders who saw what the middle east could become.

[Erc]

It'll take a while for the intense partisanship to die down (heck, we haven't even gotten over it with Reagan)...but when it does, in this event, he'll probably be viewed as a President at the very least comparable to Truman--who was hated in 1952, but is now revered by historians.

[skybridge]

This really is a good question.

When teaching something like Vietnam, the large opposition to the war is always included, but with an older event like WWI, it is often forgotten. However, I don't think Bush will rank with Lincoln, Rooselt or Washington, simply because they were significantly more popular in their own day than Bush is. Then again, give what I said before, who knows?

Anyhow, I've never completely excluded the possibilty that Bush may be setting the course for a bright future, but I tend to favor the evidence against it. Given Russia's nuclear programs, paired with the agreements between Iran and Syria (and possibly Shi'a Iraq and Lebanon a little down the road) seems like we might be thrown into another Cold War a soon.

[minionofmidas]

The good lord help me - I agree with every word of a post of Philip's.

[Akno21]

If the budget deficit cripples the government for the forseable future, it won't matter what happened in the middle east.

I suppose he has a chance, but it depends if our world image goes up.

[Hitchabrut]

I think international history will look very differently at him from USA history.

[Akno21]

I think international history will look very differently at him from USA history.

And USA history in green Seattle suburbs will look at him differently from history in rural Alabama in the bible belt.

[Notre Dame rules!]

He won't be seen as the one who made it happen, nor should he be, but he will be regarded as one of many leaders who saw what the middle east could become.

It's too soon to say that.  Many people in Lebanon and Iran are already giving him credit for making it happen.

If the budget deficit cripples the government for the forseable future, it won't matter what happened in the middle east.

If you look at the deficit in terms of actual dollars it does appear quite forboding.  However, as a percentage of GDP, the defict is very  manageable, certainly more so than it was during WWII, Korea, or Vietnam.

[The Duke]

If the budget deficit cripples the government for the forseable future, it won't matter what happened in the middle east.

I suppose he has a chance, but it depends if our world image goes up.

FDR had some pretty big deficits in the Depression and WWII.  Let you in on a little secret, nobody gives a sh**t about deficits after you're gone unless they hate you anyway and are driven to nitpicking.

He won't be seen as the one who made it happen, nor should he be, but he will be regarded as one of many leaders who saw what the middle east could become.

None of this happens without GWB.  Nothing.

Why should I care about the form of government in countries with such horrible cultures I'll never go there as a tourist.

You don't go to Thailand anymore?  They have a large Muslim population, as you know.

What if leads to more theocracies?

What if your mom leads to more theocracies?

Generally, national leaders are regarded as "great" by the citizens of the nation a lot more for doing things that directly benefit the nation itself than for doing things that benefit other people and only indirectly benefit the nation in a way that would likely be over the head of the average person. If his foreign policy attains vindication by becoming a resounding success, he certainly will be remembered as a great president, but I doubt one of the greatest; his domestic policies so far have only been so-so at best. Plus, he's never really given any memorable quotes (okay, any memorable quotes that put him in a positive light), which, while it may seem trivial, is probably a big hit against him as far as history goes.

That may be true in Canada, but here we tend to love our foreign policy champions.  Our generals especially, but also Presidents like Truman, T. Roosevelt, and Reagan are known first and foremost for foreign policy and they're widely beloved.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There is no such thing as the domino effect. The only time it has happened is when a more powerful nation shoved its ideology on others through miltary force. Domino effect of democracy is just as likely as the domino effect of communism that didn't happen.

[Jake]

If the budget deficit cripples the government for the forseable future, it won't matter what happened in the middle east.

I suppose he has a chance, but it depends if our world image goes up.

Deficits are a partisan attack to divert attention. They are not remembered, or even cared about as soon as the other party gets a man in office. I guarantee, that unless the Democrats nominate someone to the right of John McCain on economic issues, the deficit will stay the same, or even get bigger. The deficit will not go away unless we do one of three things.  We can (A) cut the defense budget; (B) drastically raise taxes; or (C) privatize masses of government programs.  Facts are, when the checks come due for Medicare, SS, Medicaid, etc 20, 30, 40 years down the road, there won't be anything left to pay it with.  Eventually, history will see FDR as the cause of one of the largest economic collapses in US history.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Why should I care about the form of government in countries with such horrible cultures I'll never go there as a tourist.

You don't go to Thailand anymore?  They have a large Muslim population, as you know.

Thailand is less than 4% Muslim.

[Jake]

Why should I care about the form of government in countries with such horrible cultures I'll never go there as a tourist.

You don't go to Thailand anymore?  They have a large Muslim population, as you know.

Thailand is less than 4% Muslim.

Unless the muslims were killed off in large quantities, they number is near 10%.

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/thailand_muslim.html

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

CIA World Factbook says 3.8%: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html

But opebo is pissed off anyway at the current ultra-nationalist Prime Minister.

[Akno21]

If the budget deficit cripples the government for the forseable future, it won't matter what happened in the middle east.

I suppose he has a chance, but it depends if our world image goes up.

Deficits are a partisan attack to divert attention. They are not remembered, or even cared about as soon as the other party gets a man in office. I guarantee, that unless the Democrats nominate someone to the right of John McCain on economic issues, the deficit will stay the same, or even get bigger. The deficit will not go away unless we do one of three things.  We can (A) cut the defense budget; (B) drastically raise taxes; or (C) privatize masses of government programs.  Facts are, when the checks come due for Medicare, SS, Medicaid, etc 20, 30, 40 years down the road, there won't be anything left to pay it with.  Eventually, history will see FDR as the cause of one of the largest economic collapses in US history.

B with a sprinkle of A would be a great start.

If it weren't for FDR, half of the seniors in this country would be in poverty. We can thank him for that. We can pay for this stuff, but not if we insist on lowering taxes and spending billions of dollars in Iraq.

[Jake]

If the budget deficit cripples the government for the forseable future, it won't matter what happened in the middle east.

I suppose he has a chance, but it depends if our world image goes up.

Deficits are a partisan attack to divert attention. They are not remembered, or even cared about as soon as the other party gets a man in office. I guarantee, that unless the Democrats nominate someone to the right of John McCain on economic issues, the deficit will stay the same, or even get bigger. The deficit will not go away unless we do one of three things.  We can (A) cut the defense budget; (B) drastically raise taxes; or (C) privatize masses of government programs.  Facts are, when the checks come due for Medicare, SS, Medicaid, etc 20, 30, 40 years down the road, there won't be anything left to pay it with.  Eventually, history will see FDR as the cause of one of the largest economic collapses in US history.

B with a sprinkle of A would be a great start.

If it weren't for FDR, half of the seniors in this country would be in poverty. We can thank him for that. We can pay for this stuff, but not if we insist on lowering taxes and spending billions of dollars in Iraq.

I'll take the last two, rather than the first one which could've easily been solved with a better system 70 years ago. 

[Ebowed]

Well, I have to say that I wasn't aware that people believed even in February 2005 that it was possible for the situation in Iraq to lead to some sort of domino effect of democracy, or that people put any stock in the domino theory at all in the first place.

[Gabu]

Well, generally for a domino effect to begin, the very first domino has to actually be pushed...

[Person Man]

Well, generally for a domino effect to begin, the very first domino has to actually be pushed...

Yeah. ...and a PURELY objective theory like the domino effect just doesn't work, especially because it tries to measure subjective issues. 


...and we had a surplus in the 90s. Why can't we have it again. Look. The answer is more liberal research laws, stronger immigration of all skill levels, allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire and flat lining the military budget, with concerns with inflation and using the taxes to strengthen research and health care infrastructure.