Seattle seeks to push minimum wage to $15!

[ElectionsGuy]

This is insanity, more businesses will lay off workers and won't hire because of this, resulting in more unemployment and poverty. And democrats love the poor right? They always treat them with "equality" right? Well it turns out not only could businesses not hire because of this, but more urban youngsters in Seattle could stay unemployed... by the result of their own policies.

[barfbag]

This is insanity, more businesses will lay off workers and won't hire because of this, resulting in more unemployment and poverty. And democrats love the poor right? They always treat them with "equality" right? Well it turns out not only could businesses not hire because of this, but more urban youngsters in Seattle could stay unemployed... by the result of their own policies.

Democrats know this, but the goal might be to force as many people onto welfare as they can in order to make them dependent on their party in exchange for votes.

[tik 🪀✨]

That makes sense. If their policies lifted me out of poverty, I would feel no loyalty towards them. But if they pushed me into poverty, I would be loyal. Yes, sir, that's some bullet proof logic.

Ah, sigh, and now I feel like a caught fish.

The R's and I'S have valid points. In order for this to not cause businesses to invest less you'd need to meet a few requirements:

1. It should be more than local law. Preferably federal with perhaps a little leeway in areas with lower cost of living (not likely)

2. It should be seen as immoral culturally to deprive workers of a decent liveable wage (would take many years)

3. Fairer standards should be required when workers are forced to compete internationally (doable but unlikely)

4. The tax system should be overhauled and incentives should be introduced to have companies remain more likely to hire new employees and retain old ones (doable and easy to sell to employers if done wisely)

5. Penalty rates should be introduced for part time, temp, and shift working employees (doable but not likely)

I think this is a great idea, obviously, but it needs to be done smartly to avoid future backlash. Capitalism is a ruthless bastard, but your bastard is still your kid. It needs to be disciplined or it will wreak havoc running amok. If we put in our rules without thought to the overall environment, all we'll get is temper tantrums, broken vases, and cutlery in the cat's eyes.

[ingemann]

This thread is pathetic. Yes a rising minimum wage could cost job, if Seattle was dominated by low wage and low skill production jobs. Instead most people who work for minimum wage is in the service sector, and service job are where people need it. The suggestion that McDonald would move their shops from the more densely populated parts of Seattle to outside the city limit because a raise in minimum wage are as pathetic as it's idiotic. "The minimum wage is rising, let move away from our customers to a thinly populated area, that will teach them!".

[DC Al Fine]

This thread is pathetic. Yes a rising minimum wage could cost job, if Seattle was dominated by low wage and low skill production jobs. Instead most people who work for minimum wage is in the service sector, and service job are where people need it. The suggestion that McDonald would move their shops from the more densely populated parts of Seattle to outside the city limit because a raise in minimum wage are as pathetic as it's idiotic. "The minimum wage is rising, let move away from our customers to a thinly populated area, that will teach them!".

1) As Ernest suggested, most of this movement will happen on the margin, with most of the movement being around the outskirts of the city. Obviously downtown Seattle McDonald's won't move, but just inside the city limits McD's might become just outside the city limits McD's

2) There is a huge incentive for low wage employers to shift from labour to capital i.e. self serve pop machines, auto-checkouts etc.

3) At $15/hr, this increase affects a lot more than fast food workers & grocery store clerks.

[opebo]

This does nothing but push businesses away from the city leading to urban sprawling. If there's one thing Democrats know how to do it's destroy cities as we've seen with Detroit. It's ok though because the suburbs will grow and add to their population creating a more livable atmosphere than cities anyways. Keep it going.

What now? Are you saying the fast food 'restaurants' in the city will all move to the suburbs because they can pay a slightly lower wage?  And just hope their poverty stricken customers from the city will somehow manage to make their way out there to buy the garbagefood?  Maybe they'll lay on a few routes of minibuses to get them out there, eh?

[opebo]

This is insanity, more businesses will lay off workers and won't hire because of this, resulting in more unemployment and poverty.

You nincompoop, these people are already poor with the job or without it!  Heck even making $15/hour one is still poor.

[The Free North]

This is insanity, more businesses will lay off workers and won't hire because of this, resulting in more unemployment and poverty.

You nincompoop, these people are already poor with the job or without it!  Heck even making $15/hour one is still poor.

Poor logic.

You are considered poor either way, but without a job, you'er going to have a much harder time making ends meet.

Maybe we should be coming up with solutions to help break the cycle of minimum wage dependency in poor communities, rather than raising it to levels that will only create more poverty.

[bgwah]

Obviously if the minimum wage is raised, compromise will make it more like $11.

[opebo]

Maybe we should be coming up with solutions to help break the cycle of minimum wage dependency in poor communities

I couldn't agree more!  But I wasn't aware you also supported ending capitalism.

[perdedor]

This right-wing alarmism is mind-numbing.

Low income workers spend their money in the private sector the same as their middle and upper class counter parts. That's demand, which fuels employment. If you don't believe that; into what black hole does the income of poor people go in your model?

[Kitteh]

Maybe we should be coming up with solutions to help break the cycle of minimum wage dependency in poor communities

I couldn't agree more!  But I wasn't aware you also supported ending capitalism.

Best post in this thread.

[Kitteh]

This right-wing alarmism is mind-numbing.

Low income workers spend their money in the private sector the same as their middle and upper class counter parts. That's demand, which fuels employment. If you don't believe that; into what black hole does the income of poor people go in your model?

Don't you know poor people never do anything with their money except for buy crack from Mexicans and pay child support so that their baby mommas can go buy crack from Mexicans?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This right-wing alarmism is mind-numbing.

Low income workers spend their money in the private sector the same as their middle and upper class counter parts. That's demand, which fuels employment. If you don't believe that; into what black hole does the income of poor people go in your model?

the price/wage spiral.

[BluegrassBlueVote]

This is insanity, more businesses will lay off workers and won't hire because of this, resulting in more unemployment and poverty. And democrats love the poor right? They always treat them with "equality" right? Well it turns out not only could businesses not hire because of this, but more urban youngsters in Seattle could stay unemployed... by the result of their own policies.

Democrats know this, but the goal might be to force as many people onto welfare as they can in order to make them dependent on their party in exchange for votes.

Bingo!

[Foucaulf]

Also, those inside the limits might well decide to engage in labor saving devices such as self-service ordering kiosks and of course self-service soda fountains.  Of course those devices tend to work better at larger places, so instead of two smaller McDonalds, replace it with one.  (Or more likely replace three with two, since location is of some importance.)  Not only does that give the economies of scale to make those labor saving devices pay, it also means fewer managers at above line crew wages.

Going to butt in here and say I was never convinced by this argument. The question is not that these stores go all labour or all capital, but at a certain point they stop. Every fast food place I've been to has a self-service soda fountain; maybe three tops have self-service ordering kiosks. Networks beam orders from the cashiers into the kitchen, but no more. So what's going on here?

My theories in order of decreasing plausibility:

- Installing machines take time. They're not cheap, and new ones are always rolled out slowly. Fast food work, in the common perception, is not intensive in any way. So there is no advantage to wasting time installing a capital-intensive system compared to a labour-intensive one.

- Risk aversion. Machines are complicated and managers may not know how to fix them. What if one breaks? Then the whole queue of the store gets messed up and the manager has to deal with the wrath of angry consumers.

- Experience is taken into account. Teenagers don't work at restaurants these days compared to long-term lower-class workers. Bonds get formed. Every member of the franchise has more confidence in their abilities to understand each other than they do with an opaque, automated system.

But I guess my whole point is that there are significant sunk costs in even the simplest of such stores, and if a wage hike can boost demand before a manager thinks the wage increase loss outweighs the sunk costs then everything works. This is likelier to take place in an urban area, where consumers comes in fast waves, some of whom have eccentricities requiring a human response.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Also, those inside the limits might well decide to engage in labor saving devices such as self-service ordering kiosks and of course self-service soda fountains.  Of course those devices tend to work better at larger places, so instead of two smaller McDonalds, replace it with one.  (Or more likely replace three with two, since location is of some importance.)  Not only does that give the economies of scale to make those labor saving devices pay, it also means fewer managers at above line crew wages.

Going to butt in here and say I was never convinced by this argument. The question is not that these stores go all labour or all capital, but at a certain point they stop. Every fast food place I've been to has a self-service soda fountain; maybe three tops have self-service ordering kiosks. Networks beam orders from the cashiers into the kitchen, but no more. So what's going on here?

There are still some fast food places around here that have the drinks machine only behind the counter. Wages tend to be more variable than ingredient costs.

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I agree that sunk costs means that a wage hike won't see restaurants immediately closing to relocate elsewhere.  But even with a boost in demand, a disparity in wages at the level being proposed  between inside Seattle and outside Seattle means that employers who hire people at low wages will when choosing a location just inside the city limits versus one just outside the city limits will favor the one outside.

[Jordan]

While they mostly have good intentions, Liberals and Democrats don't understand unintended consequences.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

While they mostly have good intentions, Liberals and Democrats don't understand unintended consequences.

As if Conservatives and Republicans don't have the same problem.

[bgwah]

A lot of people making minimum wage are on food stamps and other forms of welfare. So in a way we're already paying these people more via taxes. Personally, I see this as a subsidy to their employers more than to the employees themselves.

Ideally, I would like to see this cost shifted to where it belongs. Sticker prices in the store might be higher, but less tax revenue would go towards subsidizing these corporations' wage costs.

Of course, doing this on a municipal level will accomplish little.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Freedom State!

[barfbag]

Freedom State!

Not for anyone looking to start a business. They'll leave the state and then you'll be dependent on the government for survival. You'd love that wouldn't you?

[bgwah]

The suburb of Seatac (home to the region's main airport) has a $15/hr minimum wage initiative on the ballot this November: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021772489_seatacwagesxml.html

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The suburb of Seatac (home to the region's main airport) has a $15/hr minimum wage initiative on the ballot this November: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021772489_seatacwagesxml.html

Inside an airport is one of the few places where no one can argue that an increase in the minimum wage will lead to a noticeable increase in restaurant prices.