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Author Topic: SC Gov Mark Sanford  (Read 30068 times)
Sam Spade
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« Reply #150 on: March 03, 2005, 02:18:55 am »
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I don't think you hate the South.  I just don't see why a viable candidate still can't be Southern after so many Southern candidates.  To me it shouldn't really matter what part of the country the guy comes from, though sadly because of the electoral college it does matter.  I won't complain if both parties nominate Southerners, either.  Imagine John Breaux vs Mark Sanford.  I'd have a hard time choosing.

I'd have a hard time choosing in that one too because I like both of them.
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« Reply #151 on: March 03, 2005, 02:30:45 am »
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I don't think you hate the South.  I just don't see why a viable candidate still can't be Southern after so many Southern candidates.  To me it shouldn't really matter what part of the country the guy comes from, though sadly because of the electoral college it does matter.  I won't complain if both parties nominate Southerners, either.  Imagine John Breaux vs Mark Sanford.  I'd have a hard time choosing.

I see an oppertunity in 2008 to create a truely dominant party by reaching out to the battle ground states that went to Kerry, and even to some solid Kerry states.  Why not take it?  If we run a southern or plains state candidate, it will just be more of the same.  Having three election pass where the map looks bascially unchanged is very bad for the country.

We have an opportunity for reallignment here.  If we continue on in this state of flux, then one mistake, just one, could mean that the Democrats push us in the closet, lock the door and rule the house for another 20 years.  Is that what we want?  No, of course not.  We have to move and take advantage of this time we have now by expanding the base.  I don't know what the best way to do that is, but I do know that changing the status quo does not mean doing more o fthe same.
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« Reply #152 on: March 03, 2005, 11:03:19 am »
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Frist, the robotic and dull, cat-killing HMO operator, is not going to win the nomination.

I mean, I can't believe someone actually calls themselves a Republican after playing the victim card FOR BEING CATHOLIC! That is unbelievable. Truly remarkable victimology.

And, on top of that, he won't vote for his own party unless they nominate a yankee. Incredible. Especially since his state keeps voting for Democrats... I guess they deserve the reward. Makes sense to me, nominate someone from states that vote against your party.

I mean, what's next? Soulty won't vote Republican unless he personally gets the nomination? I mean, everyone else is a "good 'ol boy" even if their young, professional, and honest. hmm.

You know, we don't need trash like soulty in the party. Just don't need the drama. I'm not sure when people with no influence and no brain starting thinking they call the shots. I guess the Democrats are the party of the people, so soulty will have to support their white male if the GOP should nominate a white male.

What an asshole. Screw the Northeast- that's the only reason our government is full of socialists to begin with. And their thinking has apparently gotten to dumby soulty- who cries out for affirmative action to appease his childish whims.

Thank you for misinterpriting what I said.  I said "I won't support anyone in the primary who doesn't match that discription.  Not the general election.

And, once again, anti-Catholic bigotry does exist.  It is very real.  You know why you don't notice it?  Because you aren't Catholic.  If you were, you would notice.  I don't know if I can be polite about this anymore.

Now, dumby AuH2O apparently wants to nominate another Goldwater who will lose to the Democrats in a landslide and take the Senate with him.  Yeah, that's not going bring on more socialism or anything.

Clearly, you seem to have missed the fact that we live in a country.  This country is called America.  In America, we have 50 states.  There are states that are not South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi.  Some of these states voted for Bush.  Some of them didn't, but came very close, like New Hampshire, PA, Michigan, Oregon, Wisconsin and Minnesota.  Some of these states might go GOP in '08 if we pick the right candidate.  I'm pretty sure that that candidate is not Mark Sanford, Governor of Nothing and Protector of the Same.  I'm pretty sure that a good candidate from a very Liberal state like MA, like, say, Mitt Romney, might have enough appeal to turn a lot of states over to us.  I'm also pretty sure that "punishing" certain states for not voting for you is a stupid strategy that will only increase the partisan divide in this country.

Where to begin? OK how about this: I am Catholic, confirmed and all. Suck on that. Oh and I go to a college that was affiliated with the baptist convention until 13 years ago and is in the same city as Bob Jones. I've never once experienced, in 21 years, anything resembling an anti-Catholic incident, nor do I know anyone that has.

WHERE candidates are from doesn't matter. Sanford could easily take Michigan and PA and New Hampshire and the like... Pawlenty could take the South... geography isn't the be all and end all, and if you understood politics, you would know that.

But, you don't. You want to disqualify a terrific potential leader because of the state they live in. Sanford, for instance, was actually born in Florida, and he and his wife worked as investment bankers in NYC for a while before he moved back to SC to get into politics.

Romney, actually, doesn't have extensive ties to MA- so he won't win it in a national election, or the other far-left states in the People's Republic.

The main thing is for politically ignorant people to not think they know how to win Presidential elections. Or how to "create a dominant party," even though, if you had knowledge of political theory, you would also understand that isn't really possible in a 2-party system without extenuating circumstances that do not exist, and will not exist.
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« Reply #153 on: March 03, 2005, 11:35:48 am »
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1) Being of any German, English, French, Dutch or Scandanvain decent in this country cannot be compared with being of Irish, Polish, Italian or other Eastern European decent, because the former groups have always been accepted by the people of this country as those groups existed from the founding of the country.  The former, however, were often rediculed and and bigoted against because they were "foriegn", but also because they were Catholic (most of the French in early America were Hugnouts).  It wasn't until the 60's that we even started getting out of the ghettos in most places.

If you don't believe in the power of ethnic politics, study how Mike Dukakis won the nomination.  He won it largely thanks to very high turnout in Greek areas.  This isn't a guarentee of success.  The candidate must share common values with the ethnic group.  These values might be political, but they often transend the political as well.  Kerry did not share these values with most ethnically Irish, or most Catholics.

I was raised in an Italian family.  I have a friend who is acctually a "blood" Italian.  I'm more Italian than he is, because his family basically moved out of the ghetto and beat all of the Italianess out of themselves.  All that is left now is a last name.  So there are no hard and fast rules.  Which kinda prove my point about Kerry.

2) You want to find anti-Catholism, search the internet.  It really isn't that hard.

That belittles my point, however, which has been, from the begining that anti-Catholic bias in the country, though not raging, like it was as little as 50 years ago, is still present in daily life.

3) The British have rejected the rampent anti-Catholisism that you see in Northern Ireland, yes.  It is always easier to look at seething hate and see what is worng with it.  When bigotry is more subtle is when it is much more easily accepted, as is the case here.

4) Not so subtle things have happened.  In a town only 30 miles away from here, the Protestant churches spent a full year pulling their resources to pass out anti-Catholic literature, including many Chick tracts.

5) They then hit the town right next to mine, but it didn't last nearly as long because the community there is much larger and they put a stop to it.

6) Regardless of what you say, the average Protestant knows about as much of the truth about Catholic Teaching as a fish knows about riding a bike.

1) Yes, there was some discrimination quite about a century ago. That does not happen today. I dare you to find any white supremecists who don't consider those groups white. Hell, Italy and much of Eastern Europe even sided with the Nazis.

2) You can also easily find on the internet claims that the Holocaust did not happen. Does that mean a significant number of the population believes this? Yes, I can easily find Chick or Paisley's loony sites, but finding people who believe them is a much more difficult task.

Not to mention you can find anti-Protestantism on the internet pretty easily as well. Take a look here: http://www.catholicism.org/eens.html

Yes, you'll no doubt say you don't agree with that site, and that the vast majority of Catholics don't either, which I'll believe. But it's ludicrous to say that and then that most Protestants agree with Jack Chick.

3) And what are the examples? I find it hilarious you've defended Bush's visit to Bob Jones University though if you think this is so rampant, and then think it's find to visit one of the few places that actually does preach this stuff.

4) Then are women who have had abortions a minority? Strippers? They've been harassed much more than these obviously born again fundagenical churches than Catholics.

P.S. Ever heard of the National Council of Churches? I gurantee you no one from that group was involved. And they are just as large if not larger than the evangelical churches. Then add in the evangelical churches that do not consider Catholics non-Christian or whatever, and you have a much larger group of Protestants than Chick and Paisley loons.

5) Therefore the Catholic church got more defense than abortion clinics usually do.

6) might be true, might not, I don't know. But to say the average Protestant thinks Catholics aren't Christian and just a bizarre cult is ing idiotic.
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« Reply #154 on: March 03, 2005, 12:04:29 pm »
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supersoulty is just showing his anti-southern bias.

why on earth would the republicans want to nominate someone like sanford or lamar alexander when we could have mr. inclusive rick santorum, or mr. excitement tom ridge?

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« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2005, 12:33:49 pm »
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To Walter Mitty, AuH2O and BRTD

I appreciate how all of you have taken one asspect of my initial argument and blown it way out of proportion.

Au,

Congrats on being Catholic.  Want a metal?

BRTD,

You are, of course, the original perpetrator of this whole thing.  Thank you for concentrating on one point of my argument in some attempt to discredit me.  This wasn't even a point.  It was a sub-point of a point.  You could have said that is was great of me for being a progressive thinker and thinking that a woman or minority could do the job, but intead, you attacked me for say that Catholics are a minority when pretty much any political science professor who has study voting patterns would agree with me.

That website you posted is bogus, by the way.  No Catholic would ever descirb themselves as being "slave" to anything, let alone Mary's Immaculate Heart.

Walter Mitty,

Don't get involved in an argument when you have no clue what is going on.  Clearly, you probably never even read what I originally said.
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« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2005, 12:46:53 pm »
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Quick point: Kerry isn't an Irish Catholic (don't be fooled by the name) and certainly isn't an ethnic politician.
He comes off as more WASPish than a WASP like Bush, hence his poor preformance with Catholic voters and his impressive preformance with mainline Protestants.

Ethnic voters (and they're usually Catholic) are importent to both parties because on the one hand they are overwhelmingly Democratic by registration etc, but on the other hand they are usually somewhat socially conservative and don't have any problems with splitting their tickets (take a look at some of the statewide races in PA last year if you don't believe me).
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« Reply #157 on: March 03, 2005, 12:55:48 pm »
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Quick point: Kerry isn't an Irish Catholic (don't be fooled by the name) and certainly isn't an ethnic politician.
He comes off as more WASPish than a WASP like Bush, hence his poor preformance with Catholic voters and his impressive preformance with mainline Protestants.

Ethnic voters (and they're usually Catholic) are importent to both parties because on the one hand they are overwhelmingly Democratic by registration etc, but on the other hand they are usually somewhat socially conservative and don't have any problems with splitting their tickets (take a look at some of the statewide races in PA last year if you don't believe me).

Thank you, Al.


Quick question:  From what you have seen, do you think there is any anti-Catholicism here in America?  Acctually, the charge was made that anti-Catholicism was not a big deal in Britian as well.  Do you agree with that?
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« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2005, 01:16:18 pm »
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Quick question:  From what you have seen, do you think there is any anti-Catholicism here in America?

Yes, it's just not as overt as it was. Think about how many people who voted against Kennedy in '60 because he was a Catholic are still alive now. Remember that most of the people who voted against him on sectarian grounds will have had children.
Sad fact is that bigotry (against any group) never entirely goes away. It just gets less blatent.

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Acctually, the charge was made that anti-Catholicism was not a big deal in Britian as well.  Do you agree with that?

Compared to the '60's when the Tories held working class seats in Liverpool and Glasgow due to the orange (ie: anti catholic) vote and a visit by the Pope to Liverpool had to be cancelled because Liverpool City Council effectivly threatend riots, then yes it's not a big deal.

But in a more general sense, yes. There was all that fuss over Kelly becoming Education Secretary, and the bizarre incedent when the media tried to pry into Blair's religious beliefs.
Sectarianism still causes problems in Glasgow (especially Rangers v Celtic) and the Scottish Executive has been trying to stamp that out, without much sucess sadly.
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« Reply #159 on: March 03, 2005, 01:23:06 pm »
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Quick question:  From what you have seen, do you think there is any anti-Catholicism here in America?

Yes, it's just not as overt as it was. Think about how many people who voted against Kennedy in '60 because he was a Catholic are still alive now. Remember that most of the people who voted against him on sectarian grounds will have had children.
Sad fact is that bigotry (against any group) never entirely goes away. It just gets less blatent.

Quote
Acctually, the charge was made that anti-Catholicism was not a big deal in Britian as well.  Do you agree with that?

Compared to the '60's when the Tories held working class seats in Liverpool and Glasgow due to the orange (ie: anti catholic) vote and a visit by the Pope to Liverpool had to be cancelled because Liverpool City Council effectivly threatend riots, then yes it's not a big deal.

But in a more general sense, yes. There was all that fuss over Kelly becoming Education Secretary, and the bizarre incedent when the media tried to pry into Blair's religious beliefs.
Sectarianism still causes problems in Glasgow (especially Rangers v Celtic) and the Scottish Executive has been trying to stamp that out, without much sucess sadly.

Thank you again, Al.

But you mentioned abotu when Kennedy ran for President.  You mean to tell me that there were acctually anti-Catholics who voted against him in large numbers and that people were handing out flyers about the "evils" of Catholicism.  But Al, that was only 40 years ago.  According to BRTD, that all stop more than 100 years ago (befoe most Polish and Italian families were even in the country).  So, who is wrong here?

Is it possible that you, a Brit, know more about America than these Americans?
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« Reply #160 on: March 03, 2005, 01:32:20 pm »
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Oh, and another thing, I went online to search for one of those signs that says "Catholics Need Not Apply" and instead found an essay on how all of that was a myth.  Bullsh**t!

My family has one of those signs.  My great-grand father used to hang it in his office when he was DA of Clearfield county (an possition he earned but only recieved tahnks in large part to his campaigning in Catholic ghettos).  He was an Irish Catholic, and he used it as a reminder of how far we had come since my family first came here in the 1840's.  So don't tell me they don't exist or that it never happened.
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« Reply #161 on: March 03, 2005, 02:04:51 pm »
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Well, soulty, let me begin by noting it's "medal," not "metal," which of course describes certain types of elements (and, in the vernacular, alloys). Secondly, note that you claimed I "wasn't Catholic," which was actually a lie. Thirdly, Kennedy actually won a good portion of the South, Catholic and all, while losing many Northern states. Actually, Alfred Smith won the Deep South as a Catholic in 1928.

Fourthly, even if bias against Catholics still really existed, which it doesn't, you are racist against Southerners, and thus a worse offender. Fifthly, by pursuing a racist policy against the base of your party, you are essentially a traitor to that party and certainly not welcome in it.
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« Reply #162 on: March 03, 2005, 02:39:09 pm »
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I can't believe that Supersoulty is being pilloried by so many people when what he's saying has an obvious logic to it.  Soulty's argumentn is simply that the GOP must run a big tent candidate to win in a changing country, and one way to do that is to run a woman/Catholic/minority/northerner for ethnic, religious, gender, and regional appeal.  His reason is that the 2000 and 2004 victories were shadows of what a big tent GOP could accomplish.  I think he's right to some extent, and I don't think Sanford brings us that appeal.  He's a southern, male, white, Protestant with a basic Bushesque conservative philosophy that will never appeal to California or other such Democrat states.

His claim that Catholics are a minority should be accepted, because its not even debatable.  There are fewer Catholics than Protestants, and traditionally they have not been the group in power in America.

AuH20,

Don't talk about how Sanford can take Michigan and Pennsylvania, since you repeatedly predicted the Bush would take 350 EVs or so.  And don't talk about how well Smith did in 1928 in the south.  Compare his map to Davis's map in 1924, and you'll see that you have no clue what you're talking about.  There was a major drop off from 24 to 28.

WalterMitty,

Don't resort to crappy insults.  Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're bigoted against some group.  Maybe he just idsagrees and is not an anti-Southern bigot.
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« Reply #163 on: March 03, 2005, 03:15:53 pm »
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Well, soulty, let me begin by noting it's "medal," not "metal," which of course describes certain types of elements (and, in the vernacular, alloys). Secondly, note that you claimed I "wasn't Catholic," which was actually a lie. Thirdly, Kennedy actually won a good portion of the South, Catholic and all, while losing many Northern states. Actually, Alfred Smith won the Deep South as a Catholic in 1928.

Fourthly, even if bias against Catholics still really existed, which it doesn't, you are racist against Southerners, and thus a worse offender. Fifthly, by pursuing a racist policy against the base of your party, you are essentially a traitor to that party and certainly not welcome in it.

Bias against Catholics does exist and is prominent, at least where I live.
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« Reply #164 on: March 03, 2005, 03:31:38 pm »
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Quick point: Kerry isn't an Irish Catholic (don't be fooled by the name) and certainly isn't an ethnic politician.
He comes off as more WASPish than a WASP like Bush, hence his poor preformance with Catholic voters and his impressive preformance with mainline Protestants.

Ethnic voters (and they're usually Catholic) are importent to both parties because on the one hand they are overwhelmingly Democratic by registration etc, but on the other hand they are usually somewhat socially conservative and don't have any problems with splitting their tickets (take a look at some of the statewide races in PA last year if you don't believe me).

Time to bash on the Jewish Catholics?
Yes, Kerry's grandfather changed his name from Kohn to Kerry.
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« Reply #165 on: March 03, 2005, 03:44:02 pm »
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Quick point: Kerry isn't an Irish Catholic (don't be fooled by the name) and certainly isn't an ethnic politician.
He comes off as more WASPish than a WASP like Bush, hence his poor preformance with Catholic voters and his impressive preformance with mainline Protestants.

Ethnic voters (and they're usually Catholic) are importent to both parties because on the one hand they are overwhelmingly Democratic by registration etc, but on the other hand they are usually somewhat socially conservative and don't have any problems with splitting their tickets (take a look at some of the statewide races in PA last year if you don't believe me).

Time to bash on the Jewish Catholics?
Yes, Kerry's grandfather changed his name from Kohn to Kerry.

Okay... I don't think that Al was trying to "bash" on Jewish people.
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« Reply #166 on: March 03, 2005, 03:57:56 pm »
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Well, I guess Smith only got 92% in South Carolina. Guess there was good Catholic turnout there. ha.

This "big tent" stuff is hilarious. Guess what, your goal is to get MORE THAN THE OTHER SIDE. Too big of a tent collapses.

The country is only "changing" insofar as we let millions of Mexicans enter it every year. But they aren't as culturally inclined towards victimology, so Democrats hold more limited appeal to them and win a majority of their votes mainly because of economic reasons (i.e. the majority are in lower income brackets).

The idea we "need" California is quite simply laughable, as is the idea we "need" a black woman in charge for the party to survive. As far as my Bush predictions, they were good enough to make 2 grand, which I assume is more than you made off the election-- as the election drew nearer, by the way, my predictions were very accurate, it was merely early ones that did not take a disastrous first debate performance into account.

I mean, some people here maybe don't understand democracy. Unlike North Korea, we don't have to pretend there is 100% consensus. There isn't. And guess what? Conservatives want to actually implement CONSERVATIVE policies. Imagine that fordy. And here you thought the GOP was purely in a game with Democrats to win elections, where ideology doesn't matter at all.

I'm glad these people aren't coaches. 'Hey team, yeah technically our goal is to win, but if we don't win by 10 that isn't good enough, because the game is changing, uh, somehow.' 'Oh, and we can't win by using the same gameplan. Like, we need to use the other's sides plan, because otherwise, we aren't being fair.'

These people should go over to the "emerging Democratic majority" site, where idiots keep saying Democrats have to win because we imported so many Mexicans and because women hate Republicans because of abortion. Oddly, Democrats have been in retreat at all levels since 1994, but I guess that majority will emerge eventually. Just keep people poor and import another 30 million Mexicans. So Republicans should really not run anyone except female minorities-- from the West coast or Northeast-- because otherwise they might keep winning elections by relying on... UGH.. the majority vote. I hate majorities actually, they're terrible politically...
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« Reply #167 on: March 03, 2005, 04:00:19 pm »
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Time to bash on the Jewish Catholics?

Who says I'm bashing anyone?

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Yes, Kerry's grandfather changed his name from Kohn to Kerry.

And? I were pointing out that despite the name, Kerry is not an Irish Catholic.
And the fact that he comes across as a WASP (even though he isn't) is pretty indisputable IMO.
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« Reply #168 on: March 03, 2005, 04:02:16 pm »
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Time to bash on the Jewish Catholics?

Who says I'm bashing anyone?

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Yes, Kerry's grandfather changed his name from Kohn to Kerry.

And? I were pointing out that despite the name, Kerry is not an Irish Catholic.
And the fact that he comes across as a WASP (even though he isn't) is pretty indisputable IMO.

You're all complaining about how the 3rd I believe  (and the first in 44 years) non WASP major party candidate in US history comes across as a WASP? That's pretty laughable.
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« Reply #169 on: March 03, 2005, 04:05:23 pm »
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Well, I guess Smith only got 92% in South Carolina. Guess there was good Catholic turnout there. ha.

Oh dear. Someone knows less than he likes to let on. Go find out how many people actually voted in SC prior to the '40's...
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« Reply #170 on: March 03, 2005, 04:09:33 pm »
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You're all complaining about how the 3rd I believe  (and the first in 44 years) non WASP major party candidate in US history comes across as a WASP? That's pretty laughable.

Dukakis is an English name? Good Lord I learn something new every day.

Seriously though, the term WASP implies a certain amount of East Coast establishment-ness. I don't class LBJ or Bubba as WASP's, and neither did the electorate.

Like it or not Kerry came across as the most WASPish candidate since Bush sr.
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« Reply #171 on: March 03, 2005, 04:10:08 pm »
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Well, I guess Smith only got 92% in South Carolina. Guess there was good Catholic turnout there. ha.

Oh dear. Someone knows less than he likes to let on. Go find out how many people actually voted in SC prior to the '40's...

Well, Smith did run very well in the Black Belts of the South, because voters were too racially polarized to care about religion. But in the predominantly white counties, his vote collapsed far below Davis and Cox, because of anti-Catholicism. Overall, he lost substantial ground- he even lost counties in Mississippi, for God's sake!
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« Reply #172 on: March 03, 2005, 04:13:13 pm »
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Well, I guess Smith only got 92% in South Carolina. Guess there was good Catholic turnout there. ha.

Oh dear. Someone knows less than he likes to let on. Go find out how many people actually voted in SC prior to the '40's...

There were 62,700 catholics or blacks voting in SC in 1928?
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« Reply #173 on: March 03, 2005, 04:41:03 pm »
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You're all complaining about how the 3rd I believe  (and the first in 44 years) non WASP major party candidate in US history comes across as a WASP? That's pretty laughable.

Dukakis is an English name? Good Lord I learn something new every day.

Seriously though, the term WASP implies a certain amount of East Coast establishment-ness. I don't class LBJ or Bubba as WASP's, and neither did the electorate.

Like it or not Kerry came across as the most WASPish candidate since Bush sr.

So basically you're biased against the north-east? I think the north-east has had enough bashing from Republicans for political reasons.
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« Reply #174 on: March 03, 2005, 04:46:09 pm »
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So basically you're biased against the north-east? I think the north-east has had enough bashing from Republicans for political reasons.

No, I'm not.
Run a working class ethnic Catholic from Massachusetts or Rhode Island and I think they'd do pretty well (remember that Tip's approval rating was higher than Reagan's when he retired in '86), run someone who comes across as a WASP though...
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