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« Reply #100 on: March 03, 2005, 12:43:24 am »
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Sen Sam,

 48% of the people voted for a conservative Jew in 2000 (at least as a Veep candidate).  Who would have ever thought that that would happen?  

I won't vote for Romney if he shows signs that he wants to be President of Mormon America.  I won't vote for Santorum if he show signs that he wants to be President of Catholic America.  However, If they want to be President of all America, then I see no problem with their religion.
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« Reply #101 on: March 03, 2005, 12:44:53 am »
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Now, dumby AuH2O apparently wants to nominate another Goldwater who will lose to the Democrats in a landslide and take the Senate with him.  Yeah, that's not going bring on more socialism or anything.



Sanford is far from being a Goldwater. He'd do better in the North than most other Republicans.

Are you telling me that you honestly believe Sanford can be elected in Pennsylvania and Michigan?  I only know of him because I know politics.  In 2008, he will be 6 year governor of South Carolina.  Why not run Senator Thune, if we are looking to gain nothing by the virtue of our candidate?

In the meantime, bringing forward the governor of South Carolina will be a huge sign to the rest of the country that, inspite of having tons of great candidates from all over the country, we went with this guy, because he plays well with Evangelical Southerners.

What kind of message does that send?

It tells me that we are not a National Party.

No, he couldn't win Michigan or Pennsylvania. However, he could win New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and possibly even Oregon.

He doesn't play particularly well with evangelicals- he's pretty secular. And I hate to tell you this, but the GOP isn't a truly national party anymore. Neither are the Democrats.

So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?
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« Reply #102 on: March 03, 2005, 12:45:27 am »
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Sen Sam,

 48% of the people voted for a conservative Jew in 2000 (at least as a Veep candidate).  Who would have ever thought that that would happen? 

I won't vote for Romney if he shows signs that he wants to be President of Mormon America.  I won't vote for Santorum if he show signs that he wants to be President of Catholic America.  However, If they want to be President of all America, then I see no problem with their religion.

Mormons don't believe in separation of church and state. Just look at Utah, a state wholly owned and operated by the LDS.
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Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.
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« Reply #103 on: March 03, 2005, 12:46:36 am »
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So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

I'm saying that the GOP doesn't particularly need to carry states in the Northeast, which is true.
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Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.
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« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2005, 12:47:31 am »
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Now, dumby AuH2O apparently wants to nominate another Goldwater who will lose to the Democrats in a landslide and take the Senate with him.  Yeah, that's not going bring on more socialism or anything.



Sanford is far from being a Goldwater. He'd do better in the North than most other Republicans.

Are you telling me that you honestly believe Sanford can be elected in Pennsylvania and Michigan?  I only know of him because I know politics.  In 2008, he will be 6 year governor of South Carolina.  Why not run Senator Thune, if we are looking to gain nothing by the virtue of our candidate?

In the meantime, bringing forward the governor of South Carolina will be a huge sign to the rest of the country that, inspite of having tons of great candidates from all over the country, we went with this guy, because he plays well with Evangelical Southerners.

What kind of message does that send?

It tells me that we are not a National Party.

No, he couldn't win Michigan or Pennsylvania. However, he could win New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and possibly even Oregon.

He doesn't play particularly well with evangelicals- he's pretty secular. And I hate to tell you this, but the GOP isn't a truly national party anymore. Neither are the Democrats.

So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

it's a valid excuse because neither party can be one. We're never going to suceed in rural Nebraska or Mississippi, which I can accept. Now you need to accept that you'll never suceed in Minneapolis or San Francisco.
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« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2005, 12:49:14 am »
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So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

I'm saying that the GOP doesn't particularly need to carry states in the Northeast, which is true.

So "we don't have too" is a good enough excuse then?
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« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2005, 12:49:54 am »
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Sen Sam,

 48% of the people voted for a conservative Jew in 2000 (at least as a Veep candidate).  Who would have ever thought that that would happen? 

I won't vote for Romney if he shows signs that he wants to be President of Mormon America.  I won't vote for Santorum if he show signs that he wants to be President of Catholic America.  However, If they want to be President of all America, then I see no problem with their religion.

Sorry, I just don't like Mormons.  They're just a cult to me, if less crazy than the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Not a religious bigot at all, I happen to be fairly religious myself.  But I do take that into account.

To Super:  The two problem spots with the whole GOP strategy right now are Ohio and Florida.  Most of the other states are much less important.   Even the Southwest is less important fundamentally, though I'd wonder how Sanford would fare in Colorado.

Sanford will make sure Florida is covered.  I'm sure in that situation there are ways for the GOP to take care of Ohio.

National parties are a very rare thing in American history; it probably won't happen again any time in the near future.
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« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2005, 12:50:14 am »
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Neither party cares to be a national party anymore.  Both are looking to be a party of 270 EV and some change.  Oh yeah, adn getting a few million more polular votes to make it appear to be a mandate.  

I'm not knocking the strategy.   That's just the way it is.

So far, it has worked in our favor.
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« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2005, 12:50:58 am »
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So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

I'm saying that the GOP doesn't particularly need to carry states in the Northeast, which is true.

So "we don't have too" is a good enough excuse then?

You don't have to carry Vermont to win. Does that really bother you then that you have no chance of doing so?
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« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2005, 12:51:18 am »
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I like Sanford on some level from what I know.  He's a fine Governor and any state would be lucky to have him.

But I will not be supporting him in the primary, and and I don't believe he will win that primary.

He is a Governor and has no foreign policy experience.  Run down the GOP nominees in the Cold War, a similar environment to the war on terror:

1948-Thomas Dewey, Governor
1952-Dwight Eisenhower, former General
1956-Dwight eisenhower, incumbent President
1960-Richard Nixon, incumbent VP
1964-Barry Goldwater, Senator
1968-Richard Nixon, former VP
1972-Richard Nixon, incumbent President
1976-Gerald Ford, incumbentn President
1980-Ronald Reagan, Governor
1984-Ronald Reagan, incumbent President
1988-George Bush, incumbent VP

Only Dewey and Reagan came without direct foreign affairs experience.  Of those, Dewey had demonstrated his foreign affairs and campaigning skills in 1944 against impossible odds.  Reagan had shown his foreign affairs experience in the 1976 primary, and spent the four years after that ceaselessly studying foreign policy issues so he could be a credible alternative to his rivals in 1980.

The GOP will not nominate a candidate who has no foreign policy experience, this means a Senator will almost certainly get the nomination.  Names like Frist, Santorum, Coleman, Hutchison, and McCain are ones we should look at.  I believe Rice will not run, as she has not once expressed any interest in doing so.
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« Reply #110 on: March 03, 2005, 12:52:32 am »
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Are there any countries that do have true "national parties" that aren't one party dominated states anyway?
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« Reply #111 on: March 03, 2005, 12:54:06 am »
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So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

I'm saying that the GOP doesn't particularly need to carry states in the Northeast, which is true.

So "we don't have too" is a good enough excuse then?

Yes. Ignore the Northeast, and pour resources into the West, and the Midwestern battlegrounds.

The Democrats should ignore the South, and concentrate on the swing states. There's no need for a "national" strategy on either side.
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Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.
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« Reply #112 on: March 03, 2005, 12:54:28 am »
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Are there any countries that do have true "national parties" that aren't one party dominated states anyway?



I have to agree with akota on this one.
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« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2005, 12:56:42 am »
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Ford made some good points.  Post 9/11 you gotta' have some foreign policy credentials under your belt or its gonna' kill your campaign.  This is one reason Im not to thrilled about Mark Warner.
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« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2005, 12:59:30 am »
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I mean, I can't believe someone actually calls themselves a Republican after playing the victim card FOR BEING CATHOLIC! That is unbelievable. Truly remarkable victimology.

I'll ignore the rest of the garbage you wrote and say that for here I actually do agree with you. Anyone who thinks that being a Catholic makes an oppressed and discriminated against minority in this country, and the vast majority of Protestants think Catholicism is a Mary worshipping cult definately has a victim complex.
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« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2005, 12:59:42 am »
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Ummm... according to my research Minnesota is less than a quarter Catholic.

less than a quarter is still a plurality. There's over 1.2 million Catholics in Minnesota. The second highest group is my denomination, ELCA, which has 850k.

I don't know this for sure, but something tells me that, seeing as this is the midwest, most of those Catholics are German Catholics, and thus, no tmuch different from their neighbors.

yes they are mostly German, and I guess they are not much different from their neighbors since they're white. But among whites, how are Germans and Scandinavians basically the same?  This is from someone who is 3/4 Scandinavian and 1/4 German.

Quite a different story when you have an area liek mine where a vast majority of Catholics are Italian, Irish or Polish and they are out numbered by English, German and Scottish Protestants.

Have you ever been to St. Paul?

And even if people are still fighting among ethnicities when in fact almost everyone considers all of the above group as simply "white", do you really think the same stuff doesn't happen to English, German and Scottish Protestants in heavily Italian, Irish or Polish Catholic areas? And why do they get along worse than Scandinavian Protestants and German Catholics?

Kerry didn't poll high in high Catholic areas because ethnic Catholics didn't identify with him.  Plain and simple.

Or because hardly anyone cares about this when they vote anymore.

Why can't an anti-Catholic bigot exist?

Can an anti-Democrat or anti-Republican one exist?

And, no, I have never seen much Catholic on Protestant bigotry, cause we don't really care much.  Catholics recongnize the fact that we are all Christians.

Read the beliefnet forums sometime.

Most Protestants don't even consider Catholics to be Christians, rather, we are some wierd cult that worships the Pope and Mary.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you say. Most? You're the one who earlier talked about Catholicism as a seperate religion, and I corrected you on it. I have never said said Catholics are not Christian. I actually called jmfcst on this, even though it was really just a cheap shot, and even he denied he ever said so. I have never met anyone in real life who has claimed this, and know of no one outside of a few loons who think Jack Chick is right. If you think that represents the vast majority of Protestants, you are clearly deluded indeed.

You just don't understand.  I can't give you a better answer than that.

You don't identify with your faith, that's why you see it as a political party.  Most people don't.  Esspecially when that faith is part of your ethnic identity.  And trust me, if an Italian Catholic ran for President, Italian Catholics would come out in droves to support them and Polish and Irish Catholics would probably support that candidate as well.

You think that Jack Chick is an isolated loon.  Let me tell you that he is not.  Again, something I know from personal expireince that I guess you just can't know.

People don't have to be as far out as him to be anti-Catholic or believe wierd things about Catholics either.  It is rare that I meet a Protestant who knows anything about the Catholic Church, other than the lies they have always been told.

You distorted what I said, anyway.  I never said seperate religion.  I just said that we aren't Protestants.  We are all Christians.  Fact is that Protestants don't see it that way.  Once again, something you would have to expirience to understand.

Just ask Phil.  He isn't lying.  Neither am I.

That is not to say that Protestants would not vote for a Catholic, although some wouldn't.
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« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2005, 01:00:33 am »
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In the meantime, bringing forward the governor of South Carolina will be a huge sign to the rest of the country that, inspite of having tons of great candidates from all over the country, we went with this guy, because he plays well with Evangelical Southerners.

What kind of message does that send?

It tells me that we are not a National Party.
So it's okay for a candidate to be from a swing state like Pennsylvania, but if there's a Southern candidate it makes for a non-National Party?
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« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2005, 01:02:39 am »
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So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

I'm saying that the GOP doesn't particularly need to carry states in the Northeast, which is true.

So "we don't have too" is a good enough excuse then?

You don't have to carry Vermont to win. Does that really bother you then that you have no chance of doing so?

You people lack vision.

No, we don't have to win Vermont, but it would be nice to stop dividing the country.  It woul dbe nice to acctually get more than 350 EVs.  It would be better if could accutally win 55% of the popular vote.
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« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2005, 01:03:49 am »
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In the meantime, bringing forward the governor of South Carolina will be a huge sign to the rest of the country that, inspite of having tons of great candidates from all over the country, we went with this guy, because he plays well with Evangelical Southerners.

What kind of message does that send?

It tells me that we are not a National Party.
So it's okay for a candidate to be from a swing state like Pennsylvania, but if there's a Southern candidate it makes for a non-National Party?

What I am saying is that we need to get out of the south in order to be seen as legit to the country.  We can't be the party of the south.
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« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2005, 01:04:28 am »
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In the meantime, bringing forward the governor of South Carolina will be a huge sign to the rest of the country that, inspite of having tons of great candidates from all over the country, we went with this guy, because he plays well with Evangelical Southerners.

What kind of message does that send?

It tells me that we are not a National Party.
So it's okay for a candidate to be from a swing state like Pennsylvania, but if there's a Southern candidate it makes for a non-National Party?

What I am saying is that we need to get out of the south in order to be seen as legit to the country.  We can't be the party of the south.
Yeah, screw that little POS region of the country
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« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2005, 01:05:10 am »
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So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

I'm saying that the GOP doesn't particularly need to carry states in the Northeast, which is true.

So "we don't have too" is a good enough excuse then?

You don't have to carry Vermont to win. Does that really bother you then that you have no chance of doing so?

You people lack vision.

No, we don't have to win Vermont, but it would be nice to stop dividing the country.  It woul dbe nice to acctually get more than 350 EVs.  It would be better if could accutally win 55% of the popular vote.

I agree, but it's not gonna happen.
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Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.
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« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2005, 01:09:47 am »
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You just don't understand.  I can't give you a better answer than that.

You don't identify with your faith, that's why you see it as a political party.  Most people don't.  Esspecially when that faith is part of your ethnic identity.  And trust me, if an Italian Catholic ran for President, Italian Catholics would come out in droves to support them and Polish and Irish Catholics would probably support that candidate as well.

You think that Jack Chick is an isolated loon.  Let me tell you that he is not.  Again, something I know from personal expireince that I guess you just can't know.

People don't have to be as far out as him to be anti-Catholic or believe wierd things about Catholics either.  It is rare that I meet a Protestant who knows anything about the Catholic Church, other than the lies they have always been told.

You distorted what I said, anyway.  I never said seperate religion.  I just said that we aren't Protestants.  We are all Christians.  Fact is that Protestants don't see it that way.  Once again, something you would have to expirience to understand.

Just ask Phil.  He isn't lying.  Neither am I.

That is not to say that Protestants would not vote for a Catholic, although some wouldn't.

Um yeah, Ferraro gave Mondale such a huge boost among Italian Catholics, right? Kerry was an Irish Catholic.

To people in this country, it's all white. I'd laugh at anyone who'd honestly think I would be more prone to support someone for any campaign just because they were a Scandinavian Lutheran, which is just as "ethnic" as everyone you listed.

I do believe Jack Chick is an isolated loon on account of the fact that I have never met anyone who likes him period, and this includes times in the past when I have trolled conservative message boards. Not to mention anyone who trulely believes the garbage he writes but be seriously mentally deficient since there's so many holes in it its not even funny, the classic Dungeons and Dragons tract is a prime example. You basically are claiming that the vast majority of Protestants agree with Jack Chick on Catholics, which is just hilarious.

You claim that I believe a lot of lies I've been told by my mom, but I have never said Catholics aren't Christian, and neither has she. And she voted for the same Catholic in November as I did. Sheesh, you're making Pennsylvania sound like some third world country full of ethnic strife, when it's just as diverse as Minnesota, which has nothing of the sort you're describing.

Why don't you ask Al about how popular Ian Paisley is and whether he gets overwhelming support from most British Protestants too by the way. I have to say I doubt there's much since I have never met a Brit who doesn't consider him a complete lunatic.
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« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2005, 01:11:55 am »
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In the meantime, bringing forward the governor of South Carolina will be a huge sign to the rest of the country that, inspite of having tons of great candidates from all over the country, we went with this guy, because he plays well with Evangelical Southerners.

What kind of message does that send?

It tells me that we are not a National Party.
So it's okay for a candidate to be from a swing state like Pennsylvania, but if there's a Southern candidate it makes for a non-National Party?

What I am saying is that we need to get out of the south in order to be seen as legit to the country.  We can't be the party of the south.
Yeah, screw that little POS region of the country

No, I'm not saying that.  In fact, I don't know what you are worried about.

George W. Bush: White Protestant male from Texas

Bill Clinton: White Protestant male from Texas

Al Gore:  White Protestant male from Tennesse

Bob Dole: White Protestant male from Kansas

George H. W. Bush: White Protestant male from Texas

Jimmy Carter: White Protestant male from Gerogia

Maybe it is time to let some other people in?

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« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2005, 01:13:13 am »
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Jfern,

We're all partisan her, but you're a total hack.

It should be obvious to anyone non-partisan who pays attention that Condi Rice is a major league liar.
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« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2005, 01:14:01 am »
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In how many elections since 1860 has a candidate won more than 55% of the vote:

1864 - Lincoln gets 55.02%  (half of country doesn't vote)
1872 - Grant gets 55.63% (helped by disenfranchising Confederates)
1904 - Roosevelt gets 56.42%  (popular prez.)
1920 - Harding gets 60.32% (return to normalcy)
1928 - Hoover gets 58.21% (chicken in every pot)
1932 - Roosevelt gets 57.41% (Great Depression)
1936 - Roosevelt gets 60.80% (height of his popularity)
1952 - Eisenhower gets 55.18% (Korean War)
1956 - Eisenhower gets 57.37% (Ike popular, incompetent challenger)
1964 - Johnson gets 61.05% (Kennedy ass., Goldwater bad candidate)
1972 - Nixon gets 60.67% (McGovern bad candidate)
1984 - Reagan gets 58.77% (Reagan popular)

I count 12 out 37 times a candidate has gotten more than 55% of the vote.  National margins and parties are an anomaly, not to be expected very often.
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