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12th Doctor
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« Reply #200 on: March 04, 2005, 03:50:02 am »
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Now, let me ask you a couple of serious questions, AuH2O.

I don't expect you to answer them if you don't want to.

1) Where do you work?

2) In what kind of activities do you generally participate?

3) Do you live in either Northern Virginia or the Virginia Beach area?

4) How active are you in religious functions?

5) Have you ever been told by a friend or girlfriend that they couldn't see you anymore because you were Catholic?

6) Even worse, has your family been split apart because one side is Catholic and the other is not?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 03:54:58 am by Senator Supersoulty »Logged

12th Doctor
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« Reply #201 on: March 04, 2005, 04:19:35 am »
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Basically, what I am reading from this conversation is that the Republican Party, in the eyes of its own members, is a party for Southern WASP's only.  We should not attempt to branch out and be leaders let alone leaders of a real cooalition.

Having a vision for leading the country is not nearly as important as holding onto power by sticking to a strategy that sqeeks out wins every 2 years.

We don't need states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Oregon, etc. to win, so we shouldn't even bother trying for them.  As long as we have Florida and Ohio, we are good.  No matter how slim our leads are there.

Vision=bad
Servicing the Narrow Interests of the Base Only=good

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« Reply #202 on: March 04, 2005, 07:10:37 am »
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Super,

I don't think that anyone is saying that we shouldn't try to pick off a few more states from the Dems, thoush some like VT, MA, and NY are a waste of time and efort.  However, you don't throw away your base of support (West and South) in order to pick up PA (maybe), or MN (maybe) .  The GOP has been getting much closer to winning those two states with the strategy we currently have.  Why change what works? 

As for alsways nominating Southerners, I agree with you we should try to look for some candidates from other regions.  The problem is that very few Northeasterners or West-coasters are conservative enough to survive the primaries.  Hell, don't blame the South for that, since most of the early primaries are decide by northern and Midwestern states.   By the time the primaries get down here, most of the field of candidates has already dropped out of the race.  In fact, most drop out after just the first to contests.
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« Reply #203 on: March 04, 2005, 10:54:31 am »
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BRTD,

You are, of course, the original perpetrator of this whole thing.  Thank you for concentrating on one point of my argument in some attempt to discredit me.  This wasn't even a point.  It was a sub-point of a point.  You could have said that is was great of me for being a progressive thinker and thinking that a woman or minority could do the job, but intead, you attacked me for say that Catholics are a minority when pretty much any political science professor who has study voting patterns would agree with me.

actually no. You're basically advocating affirmative action. I will never take anyone's race or gender into account when voting for them in a primary. I will vote for the candidate I like best.

It isn't affirmative action.  The people I was talking about acctually earned their way in.  Affirmative Action is when you set a particular quote, with no regard for whether or not someone earned their way more than anyone else.

wow, you are ignorant. Quotas != affirmative action. In fact, quotas have been illegal ever since the 1978 Supreme Court decision Board of Regents of University of California v. Bakke. I oppose race based affirmative action, but I will admit many people have no clue what it is. Giving people positions partially because of their race is affirmative action, even if they are also qualified, if their race is a factor, and I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face Rice and Gonzalez's races weren't factors, especially since Republicans kept bringing it up whenever they bashed Democrats for opposing them. And what you have suggested above is affirmative action for your party's nominee.

That website you posted is bogus, by the way.  No Catholic would ever descirb themselves as being "slave" to anything, let alone Mary's Immaculate Heart.

yes, it's an incredibly ridiculous loony site that very very few Catholics would agree with. Just like Chick and Paisley's sites are ridiculous loony sites that very very few Protestants agree with.
Quote

The difference is, of course, that Jack Chick sells millions of tracts every single year, and guess where they end up?  On my door step.
Quote

I know someone who collects them and finds them humorous. Not everyone who likes them is because they agree with them. I find them humorous too, since Chick is so out of the loop it's a wonder anyone takes him seriously.
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« Reply #204 on: March 04, 2005, 10:56:50 am »
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6) Even worse, has your family been split apart because one side is Catholic and the other is not?

not directed toward me, but this does apply to my family like I've said before my mother's side is Catholic, and there has never been any type of split, nor have I seen any resentment from anyone on my mother's side toward her or one of her sisters who also renounced the church.
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« Reply #205 on: March 04, 2005, 12:35:26 pm »
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People seem to be forgeting about the CNN poll that showed that Giuliani beats all the other choices for '08, by far, among Republicans (38% I think).  McCain comes in second (10% behind Rudy) and First comes in at 15%.

Pure name recognition.  My sisters like 8 and she knows who Rudy Giuliani is.  My dog knows who Rudy Giuliani is.

I agree. I think Giuliani is only riding high among Republicans because of name recognition. The 'Talibangelicals' won't stand by and watch Giuliani win the GOP nomination simply because he's not conservative enough on the issues

I don't know enough about Governor Sanford to form any opinion on him - but should he run and win the nomination, he'll most likely carry the South as southern Republicans do nowadays and I'd say the chances of him seeing off a liberal Democratic opponent are pretty high

Dave
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #206 on: March 04, 2005, 01:32:36 pm »
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BRTD,

You are, of course, the original perpetrator of this whole thing.  Thank you for concentrating on one point of my argument in some attempt to discredit me.  This wasn't even a point.  It was a sub-point of a point.  You could have said that is was great of me for being a progressive thinker and thinking that a woman or minority could do the job, but intead, you attacked me for say that Catholics are a minority when pretty much any political science professor who has study voting patterns would agree with me.

actually no. You're basically advocating affirmative action. I will never take anyone's race or gender into account when voting for them in a primary. I will vote for the candidate I like best.

It isn't affirmative action.  The people I was talking about acctually earned their way in.  Affirmative Action is when you set a particular quote, with no regard for whether or not someone earned their way more than anyone else.

wow, you are ignorant. Quotas != affirmative action. In fact, quotas have been illegal ever since the 1978 Supreme Court decision Board of Regents of University of California v. Bakke. I oppose race based affirmative action, but I will admit many people have no clue what it is. Giving people positions partially because of their race is affirmative action, even if they are also qualified, if their race is a factor, and I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face Rice and Gonzalez's races weren't factors, especially since Republicans kept bringing it up whenever they bashed Democrats for opposing them. And what you have suggested above is affirmative action for your party's nominee.

Quotas are used as a part of Affirmative Action.  This is true.  You cannot deny it.  I never advocated giving anyone a possition based on minority status.  I simply said that someone with qualifications who happens to be from a group would be a good choice.  Notice, no one on my list needed to fit tha qualification, I just put it out there.  I find it laughable that people are attacking me for it.

That website you posted is bogus, by the way.  No Catholic would ever descirb themselves as being "slave" to anything, let alone Mary's Immaculate Heart.

yes, it's an incredibly ridiculous loony site that very very few Catholics would agree with. Just like Chick and Paisley's sites are ridiculous loony sites that very very few Protestants agree with.
Quote

The difference is, of course, that Jack Chick sells millions of tracts every single year, and guess where they end up?  On my door step.
Quote

I know someone who collects them and finds them humorous. Not everyone who likes them is because they agree with them. I find them humorous too, since Chick is so out of the loop it's a wonder anyone takes him seriously.
Quote

People do take him seriously though!  You came up with one example of someone who doesn't.  That does not account for the millions of those things that he sells every years.  And, as I said, you don't have to agree with Chick full tilt, or even know who he is in order to agree with some of what he says.

Do people have to be full out socialist libertines, like you, to agree with everything you say?
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« Reply #207 on: March 04, 2005, 01:37:34 pm »
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Quotas may be a form of affirmative action, but it's irrelevant now. They are illegal. And it's not the form of affirmative action you are advocating. Taking anyone's race into account at all is affirmative action, even if it's not the top priority.

A bunch of fundagelicals may like Chick, yeah, but they are still a very very very small portion of the population, and of Protestants. Do you believe most members of National Council of Churches denominations like Chick?
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« Reply #208 on: March 04, 2005, 02:40:25 pm »
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Now, let me ask you a couple of serious questions, AuH2O.

I don't expect you to answer them if you don't want to.

1) Where do you work?

2) In what kind of activities do you generally participate?

3) Do you live in either Northern Virginia or the Virginia Beach area?

4) How active are you in religious functions?

5) Have you ever been told by a friend or girlfriend that they couldn't see you anymore because you were Catholic?

6) Even worse, has your family been split apart because one side is Catholic and the other is not?

1) Currently? Nowhere.. the last couple years I've worked for a law firm, this summer I'll work in D.C.

2) I'm not sure what "activities" means. I like playing golf, playing guitar, going to concerts, partying, the usual.

3) Virginia Beach but I go to school in Greenville, SC

4) Now? Not very, I just go to Church on holidays. But I used to be more active, particularly during the Confirmation process of course.

5) No. At school, if I find out someone else or a few of us are Catholic in a given spot, sometimes we joke around and are like "yeah for Catholics!" just because it's mostly protestant, but it's all in jest. If there is a division it's between religious/non-religious.

6) No, actually the exact opposite. My dad and his family are Jewish (mom's side Catholic). His mother and my mom's mother (perhaps the fathers but they were more laid back I think) were not overly pleased at first when they were dating-- this was the 60s-- but got over it quickly and have had a good relationship for decades. My parents have been married almost 28 years. My dad attends Church on certain holidays and for special occasions (i.e. first Communion), and we go to Bar Mitzvahs and the like on his side. Never been a problem with anyone of either religion.

Actually, some people think I'm Jewish, and I've never had any kind of negative experience as a result of that either. Though I'm not sure how many people think that-- some people think I'm from the Iberian peninsula, some think Eastern European...
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« Reply #209 on: March 04, 2005, 03:13:45 pm »
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Basically, what I am reading from this conversation is that the Republican Party, in the eyes of its own members, is a party for Southern WASP's only.  We should not attempt to branch out and be leaders let alone leaders of a real cooalition.

Having a vision for leading the country is not nearly as important as holding onto power by sticking to a strategy that sqeeks out wins every 2 years.

We don't need states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Oregon, etc. to win, so we shouldn't even bother trying for them.  As long as we have Florida and Ohio, we are good.  No matter how slim our leads are there.

Vision=bad
Servicing the Narrow Interests of the Base Only=good



Soulty, the GOP made a conscious decision to become a southern-oriented party. You're just reaping what your predecessors have sown.
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« Reply #210 on: March 05, 2005, 05:08:04 am »
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Basically, what I am reading from this conversation is that the Republican Party, in the eyes of its own members, is a party for Southern WASP's only.  We should not attempt to branch out and be leaders let alone leaders of a real cooalition.

Having a vision for leading the country is not nearly as important as holding onto power by sticking to a strategy that sqeeks out wins every 2 years.

We don't need states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Oregon, etc. to win, so we shouldn't even bother trying for them.  As long as we have Florida and Ohio, we are good.  No matter how slim our leads are there.

Vision=bad
Servicing the Narrow Interests of the Base Only=good



Soulty, the GOP made a conscious decision to become a southern-oriented party. You're just reaping what your predecessors have sown.

Would that have been the 'Nixon Strategy'?

Dave
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« Reply #211 on: March 05, 2005, 01:01:15 pm »
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Basically, what I am reading from this conversation is that the Republican Party, in the eyes of its own members, is a party for Southern WASP's only.  We should not attempt to branch out and be leaders let alone leaders of a real cooalition.

Having a vision for leading the country is not nearly as important as holding onto power by sticking to a strategy that sqeeks out wins every 2 years.

We don't need states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Oregon, etc. to win, so we shouldn't even bother trying for them.  As long as we have Florida and Ohio, we are good.  No matter how slim our leads are there.

Vision=bad
Servicing the Narrow Interests of the Base Only=good



Soulty, the GOP made a conscious decision to become a southern-oriented party. You're just reaping what your predecessors have sown.

Would that have been the 'Nixon Strategy'?

Dave

It started with Barry Goldwater, but yeah, it was Nixon that perfected it.
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« Reply #212 on: March 05, 2005, 03:57:55 pm »
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Its not like I want the South out of our party, or anything.  I would much rather have them in, believe me.  I'm glad that we have such a solid base.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt any to expand the base and win over more states.

Right now, Missouri is not in the "base".  Ohio is not in the base.  Iowa is not in the base.  Florida is not in the base.  Nevada and New Mexico are not in the base.  Without them, we can't win.
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« Reply #213 on: March 05, 2005, 04:01:20 pm »
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Its not like I want the South out of our party, or anything.  I would much rather have them in, believe me.  I'm glad that we have such a solid base.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt any to expand the base and win over more states.

Right now, Missouri is not in the "base".  Ohio is not in the base.  Iowa is not in the base.  Florida is not in the base.  Nevada and New Mexico are not in the base.  Without them, we can't win.

and you just can't magically add them while keeping the far right policies that your base in the south demands. When a party has a far right base, it can't add moderate states to the base.

P.S. There is no such thing as a national party outside of a one party system. Deal with it.
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« Reply #214 on: March 05, 2005, 04:05:53 pm »
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BRTD,

Quotas still exist.  They are de facto quotas, not de jure quotas.  Simply calibrate the preference to achieve a predetermined outcome, which is exactly what almost all Universities have done.
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« Reply #215 on: March 05, 2005, 04:07:10 pm »
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Well like I've said I don't support quotas or race based affirmative action. I just find it ridiculous Republicans can whine about it, and then use it for their cabinet appointments and nominating candidates.
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« Reply #216 on: March 05, 2005, 04:07:15 pm »
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Its not like I want the South out of our party, or anything.  I would much rather have them in, believe me.  I'm glad that we have such a solid base.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt any to expand the base and win over more states.

Right now, Missouri is not in the "base".  Ohio is not in the base.  Iowa is not in the base.  Florida is not in the base.  Nevada and New Mexico are not in the base.  Without them, we can't win.

Of course, Super, by your definition of "base", Oregon, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and New Hampshire are the not in the base either for Democrats.

We just live in very divided times politically in the Presidential realm.  I honestly don't see that changing in the near future, either.
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« Reply #217 on: March 05, 2005, 04:14:32 pm »
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Two elections makes "times"?

One problem with the internet and all that is that it causes us all to lose our perspective at times.
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« Reply #218 on: March 05, 2005, 04:15:47 pm »
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Two elections makes "times"?

One problem with the internet and all that is that it causes us all to lose our perspective at times.

you can't deny the population is very divided on Bush.
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« Reply #219 on: March 05, 2005, 04:19:24 pm »
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Appointing a black person to your cabinet is not affirmative action. Appointing a black person because he's black is affirmative action.

The population is divided on Bush, but for what, a year and a half?
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« Reply #220 on: March 05, 2005, 04:21:35 pm »
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Two elections makes "times"?

One problem with the internet and all that is that it causes us all to lose our perspective at times.

Actually, Al, its been the last three elections, or the time period from 1996-2004.  1996, 1998 and 2000 were evenly divided in terms of national congressional vote (49%-49%) and in 1996, Clinton only got 49% of the popular vote.

2002 and 2004, both had the Republicans up 51%-47% in terms of Congressional vote.

Whether that continues or not is a grand question, but I will continue to group the past 10 years together as "present times", because they are present times and there has not been very much variation in between them.
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« Reply #221 on: March 05, 2005, 04:27:04 pm »
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Slight problem: where the two parties are strongest at Congressional level isn't the same as at Presidential level. Similer, yes. The same? No.
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« Reply #222 on: March 05, 2005, 04:29:24 pm »
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Appointing a black person to your cabinet is not affirmative action. Appointing a black person because he's black is affirmative action.

like I said, if you honestly think Rice and Gonzalez would've gotten their jobs if they were white I have some nice warm oceanside property in Minnesota to sell you.
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« Reply #223 on: March 05, 2005, 04:30:23 pm »
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Slight problem: where the two parties are strongest at Congressional level isn't the same as at Presidential level. Similer, yes. The same? No.

True, but you'd be surprised how all the gerrymanders tend to balance themselves out. 

It's a fair gauge in looking at trends, people like Michael Barone and Charlie Cook have been looking at those numbers for years in analyzing where the country is moving politically.

I'm not basing it entirely for my analysis at all, but it's something I always keep in the back of my mind when looking at numbers.
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« Reply #224 on: March 05, 2005, 04:31:48 pm »
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I would actually argue that gerrymanders just distort the figures.
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