Obamacare Is Toast, Question Is What Comes Next
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  Obamacare Is Toast, Question Is What Comes Next
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Author Topic: Obamacare Is Toast, Question Is What Comes Next  (Read 2369 times)
Torie
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« on: September 20, 2013, 02:56:28 PM »

Sure, some will say this article is just another right wing rag, and who cares about their propaganda, and even putting up the article is "trolling." Who knows, someone may even report it!  Tongue

Of more interest to me, is whether there are any factual inaccuracies in the article's assertions, by commission or misleading omission.

What we probably need to do (the Torie plan, not the non-existent Pub plan), is raise taxes to finance some of the premiums for the poor (and those with pre-existing conditions who are uninsured, also perhaps to some degree means tested), and get rid of the morally unjustifiable cross subsidies (young to old), put teeth in the now unenforceable anemic and inadequate insurance mandate by converting it to a tax credit used to offset what would otherwise be a new sort of flat tax, revamp Medicare on the HMO model, redo the drug pricing regime, set up a an efficient mechanism so folks can switch insurance companies, with cross payments to cover whatever conditions pop up while be insured by the prior company, so it is truly a national market, and of course have a lot more pricing and coverage transparency - mandated by law.  Oh well.

It will be interesting to see what happens. The crystal balls are just so at variance as to how this all will play out.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 03:07:14 PM »

Torie, I still don't see the problem with the young subsidizing the elderly.  Provided that the younger generations are guaranteed to receive the same treatment when they retire, what is morally unjustifiable about it?  Haven't we been doing this for the past eighty years?
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opebo
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 03:14:52 PM »

The article just says right-wingers don't like it, Torie, it doesn't offer proof it 'is toast'.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 03:23:41 PM »

I see what you did here Sad
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snowguy716
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 03:31:25 PM »

Basically I got this from the article:  Old, crotchety Republicans hate Obama and government.  They know when Obamacare is implemented, it will move forward with relatively minimal disruption, and will become very popular among the American populace.

And that's what they're afraid of.  They're afraid that it'll work.  Why?  Because they had absolutely no part in it.  They're panicking now because when it works out relatively smoothly, more people are insured, and health care costs continue to decline... the GOP and their dying, irrelevant base will be saddled with all the obvious bullsh**t they've been spewing for 2 years now.  They'll be tied to the 40+ votes to try and defund the program.  That must scare the sh**t out of people like you Torie.

Continue to stay in your bubble of delusion and self grandeur.  Continue to support people who think that they can "connect" with young people by dressing up people in Uncle Sam clown suits and 'scare' them when he tries to poke and prod at their vaginas and buttholes... the condescension is unbearable.

The truth is, this will work.  It will have bumps, as any major new law does... but in the end, Torie, people like you will be left holding the flaming bag of sh**t that you've been trying to lob at healthcare reform... and your outdated, falsified ideas (which you seem very confident and proud of) will be even more irrelevant and delusional than they already are.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 03:42:46 PM »

Sure, some will say this article is just another right wing rag, and who cares about their propaganda, and even putting up the article is "trolling." Who knows, someone may even report it!  Tongue

Of more interest to me, is whether there are any factual inaccuracies in the article's assertions, by commission or misleading omission.

What we probably need to do (the Torie plan, not the non-existent Pub plan), is raise taxes to finance some of the premiums for the poor (and those with pre-existing conditions who are uninsured, also perhaps to some degree means tested), and get rid of the morally unjustifiable cross subsidies (young to old), put teeth in the now unenforceable anemic and inadequate insurance mandate by converting it to a tax credit used to offset what would otherwise be a new sort of flat tax, revamp Medicare on the HMO model, redo the drug pricing regime, set up a an efficient mechanism so folks can switch insurance companies, with cross payments to cover whatever conditions pop up while be insured by the prior company, so it is truly a national market, and of course have a lot more pricing and coverage transparency - mandated by law.  Oh well.

It will be interesting to see what happens. The crystal balls are just so at variance as to how this all will play out.

The young might as well subsidize the insurance costs of their elders -- because if they don't do so they are going to pay those costs in other ways. Medical costs may stay level and low until people get into their 50s, but then they skyrocket -- and they skyrocket faster and earlier for those with bad habits (obesity, smoking, alcoholism, drugs, sedentary lives).

They already do so through Medicare taxes. But that is cheaper than having to pay thousands to pay off grandparents' treatment in the ICU. 

Heck, John Boehner has said all along that his purpose on Obamacare is "repeal and replace". So far all he has gotten from the House is bills to repeal Obamacare while offering no replacement. What are the results now -- 0-for-44? Only pitchers get away with that sort of batting performance in baseball.

In theory it is simple: the Republicans need to offer something better, and back to profits-first medicine as it was before Obamacare will be defeated in the Senate until at least 2015 and will face a veto by President Obama before 2017. Offer something better -- maybe Medicare for All -- and President Obama will likely sign it.

The insurance companies may not like that -- so let them sell life insurance instead.     
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Torie
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 03:44:58 PM »
« Edited: September 20, 2013, 03:47:08 PM by Torie »

No factual accuracies found yet apparently. Keep at it.

Scott, I don't think it right for young folks without much money to subsidize rich old folks like myself. Subsidies should be means tested - always. This aspect of Obamacare is not means tested at all (except low income young folks get some subsidy); rather it is age tested, and that is just wrong. I need to pay full freight, and then probably pay some more tax to help finance the means tested subsidies. Pbrower for some odd reason wants me to be subsidized. Yes, old folks will pay more than under Obamacare, but if they can't afford it, they get subsidized. Voila!

I don't think I am being conservative on this issue at all actually - just sensible and coherent (as I see it of course). I agree with the left that everyone needs medical services, and up to a certain level, they need them even if they can't pay for them, and that the subsidies out and in should be means tested, and we need an HMO system to help calculate the amount of the subsidies, since that is the most cost effective way to offer health care. Heck on this one, just call me an f'ing SOCIALIST! Tongue
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opebo
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 03:45:28 PM »

I'm skeptical, anyway, Torie, that any young people make enough to pay taxes.  I'm sure if I went back home I'd make so little I would qualify for the free insurance.  Who makes enough to afford insurance nowadays?
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Harry
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 05:50:08 PM »

Can't wait 'til October 1.  It's morning again in America.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 06:35:50 PM »

No factual accuracies found yet apparently. Keep at it.

Scott, I don't think it right for young folks without much money to subsidize rich old folks like myself. Subsidies should be means tested - always. This aspect of Obamacare is not means tested at all (except low income young folks get some subsidy); rather it is age tested, and that is just wrong. I need to pay full freight, and then probably pay some more tax to help finance the means tested subsidies. Pbrower for some odd reason wants me to be subsidized. Yes, old folks will pay more than under Obamacare, but if they can't afford it, they get subsidized. Voila!

I don't think I am being conservative on this issue at all actually - just sensible and coherent (as I see it of course). I agree with the left that everyone needs medical services, and up to a certain level, they need them even if they can't pay for them, and that the subsidies out and in should be means tested, and we need an HMO system to help calculate the amount of the subsidies, since that is the most cost effective way to offer health care. Heck on this one, just call me an f'ing SOCIALIST! Tongue
The impetus is not on us to find 'inaccuracies' with a rag piece that doesn't actually provide facts... but opinions and hopes of failure about the ACA.

"Young peoples' premiums will go up".... "the subsidy won't make up for the cost increase"....

Do you have any proof of this outside of your conservabubble?

Keep trying, Torie!  Keep at it!  Relevancy in this debate is only one more Bill Kristol drivel piece away!

What's cute is how you pretend to care about the plight of poor young people.  "They shouldn't be subsidizing people like me"... yeah, can your pseudo compassion.  Pretty much every policy position you have is designed to puff up yourself at the expensive of young people.  So excuse me if I don't buy your sudden change of heart on this one issue.
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t_host1
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 07:47:34 PM »


 ObamaCare toast is what it was in the beginning and in its present form, required eating. As for what is next; civil rights violations, equal protection violation and various versions of Benghazi, NSA, Syria and DC naval yard outcomes by the Obamacare Director’s, administrators, regulators and their enforcer’s.
Has anyone else notice that advertisements of prescription drugs come with all the side effects cited and how Obamacare is being advertised the most power medical device known to man, has none?
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Cory
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2013, 08:19:03 PM »

Basically I got this from the article:  Old, crotchety Republicans hate Obama and government.  They know when Obamacare is implemented, it will move forward with relatively minimal disruption, and will become very popular among the American populace.

And that's what they're afraid of.  They're afraid that it'll work.  Why?  Because they had absolutely no part in it.  They're panicking now because when it works out relatively smoothly, more people are insured, and health care costs continue to decline... the GOP and their dying, irrelevant base will be saddled with all the obvious bullsh**t they've been spewing for 2 years now.  They'll be tied to the 40+ votes to try and defund the program.  That must scare the sh**t out of people like you Torie.

Continue to stay in your bubble of delusion and self grandeur.  Continue to support people who think that they can "connect" with young people by dressing up people in Uncle Sam clown suits and 'scare' them when he tries to poke and prod at their vaginas and buttholes... the condescension is unbearable.

The truth is, this will work.  It will have bumps, as any major new law does... but in the end, Torie, people like you will be left holding the flaming bag of sh**t that you've been trying to lob at healthcare reform... and your outdated, falsified ideas (which you seem very confident and proud of) will be even more irrelevant and delusional than they already are.

THIS.
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shua
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2013, 08:21:41 PM »
« Edited: September 20, 2013, 08:25:13 PM by shua »

What's cute is how you pretend to care about the plight of poor young people.  "They shouldn't be subsidizing people like me"... yeah, can your pseudo compassion.  Pretty much every policy position you have is designed to puff up yourself at the expensive of young people.  So excuse me if I don't buy your sudden change of heart on this one issue.

I'm guessing you buy into AARP's ads that they are against any reforms to Social Security because they are the ones who care about the children? 

I'm sorry, but even if you are delusional and misinformed from a policy perspective, it's still not acceptable for you to make some claim about Torie or anyone else having a certain policy because they are greedy and thereby ignore their actual claims.  Memphis has made a habit of that, but I'm sorry to see you go there.
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King
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 08:23:25 PM »

The article is titled "Never Surrender."

Usually, if your general is leading you into battle with those words, it means he's expecting to be slaughtered by the end of the day.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2013, 08:51:29 PM »

No factual accuracies found yet apparently. Keep at it.


As Snowguy so eloquently said, this crap you posted has precious little facts and a whole lot of fearmongering and whining. This guy wants to present Obamacare as the second coming of the plague but besides a couple of throwaway numbers he offers absolutely no evidence that supports his doom-and-gloom theories.
But keep trying Torie. Next time you should post a Palin tweet. It will be less time-consuming and more entertaining that today's offering.
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Sbane
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2013, 08:57:56 PM »
« Edited: September 20, 2013, 09:06:51 PM by Senator Sbane »

No factual accuracies found yet apparently. Keep at it.

We can't wait till October 1st? We need to form an opinion before the program even goes live? Anyone who thinks they can predict what will happen with Obamacare in the end is just talking out their ass. And this goes for both sides, obviously. I bet they also know where the Dow Jones will be 5 years from now.

And if your response is to say people have calculated what the rates will be or whatever, are they really comparing oranges to oranges? If they are comparing rates from pre-Obamacare to post, are they accounting for the fact that more bare bones insurance won't be allowed in Obamacare? Is it just an average of plans from before versus after? Has a non-biased source actually done such a study comparing rates for identical products from before and after? Is that even possible right now? Intuitively, I have to say that prices should go down as there is a larger marketplace and more competition. Insurance companies will not charge as much as before because the chance of adverse selection has gone down. Of course, your argument may be that enough young and healthy people won't sign up, causing rate increases in the future...BUT HOW THE F DO YOU KNOW THAT RIGHT NOW? I am not saying whether it will happen or not, but I don't know that and anyone who says they does, like I said before, is talking out their ass. 
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Sbane
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2013, 09:22:30 PM »

Also the name of the article is hilarious and very telling.
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barfbag
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2013, 10:06:11 PM »

Basically I got this from the article:  Old, crotchety Republicans hate Obama and government.  They know when Obamacare is implemented, it will move forward with relatively minimal disruption, and will become very popular among the American populace.

And that's what they're afraid of.  They're afraid that it'll work.  Why?  Because they had absolutely no part in it.  They're panicking now because when it works out relatively smoothly, more people are insured, and health care costs continue to decline... the GOP and their dying, irrelevant base will be saddled with all the obvious bullsh**t they've been spewing for 2 years now.  They'll be tied to the 40+ votes to try and defund the program.  That must scare the sh**t out of people like you Torie.

Continue to stay in your bubble of delusion and self grandeur.  Continue to support people who think that they can "connect" with young people by dressing up people in Uncle Sam clown suits and 'scare' them when he tries to poke and prod at their vaginas and buttholes... the condescension is unbearable.

The truth is, this will work.  It will have bumps, as any major new law does... but in the end, Torie, people like you will be left holding the flaming bag of sh**t that you've been trying to lob at healthcare reform... and your outdated, falsified ideas (which you seem very confident and proud of) will be even more irrelevant and delusional than they already are.

I sense anger in your post. What if we do find a way to stop it? Then what?
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Harry
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2013, 10:28:16 PM »

So, did Torie just make up this fantasy that the subsidies aren't means tested, or did he read that on some right-wing troll article?

The "amount" of your subsidy is irrelevant -- the subsidy is whatever it needs to be to make your bill affordable.  If you make 120% of the FPL, your subsidy will make your bill very low.  If you make 320% of the FPL, the subsidy will lower the bill, but not as much.  Your bill depends 100% on your income (means to pay).

Secondly, is he against Medicare? (or, is I could reword, "is he at least ideologically consistent?")
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Harry
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2013, 10:32:06 PM »

And if your response is to say people have calculated what the rates will be or whatever, are they really comparing oranges to oranges? If they are comparing rates from pre-Obamacare to post, are they accounting for the fact that more bare bones insurance won't be allowed in Obamacare?

No, every Republican hack "statistic" compares the cheapest bare-bones high deductible plan offered only to people in their 20s (that shouldn't be sold to anyone in the first place and won't be legal in 2014) to a plan with a much richer benefit.  They also never factor in the subsidies (which the vast majority of people buying insurance on the exchanges will be getting).

Remember, if you make more than 400% of the FPL, you are almost certainly going to be getting good, relatively cheap insurance from your job which will barely be affected by Obamacare.
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memphis
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2013, 10:44:49 PM »

Basically I got this from the article:  Old, crotchety Republicans hate Obama and government.  They know when Obamacare is implemented, it will move forward with relatively minimal disruption, and will become very popular among the American populace.

And that's what they're afraid of.  They're afraid that it'll work.  Why?  Because they had absolutely no part in it.  They're panicking now because when it works out relatively smoothly, more people are insured, and health care costs continue to decline... the GOP and their dying, irrelevant base will be saddled with all the obvious bullsh**t they've been spewing for 2 years now.  They'll be tied to the 40+ votes to try and defund the program.  That must scare the sh**t out of people like you Torie.

Continue to stay in your bubble of delusion and self grandeur.  Continue to support people who think that they can "connect" with young people by dressing up people in Uncle Sam clown suits and 'scare' them when he tries to poke and prod at their vaginas and buttholes... the condescension is unbearable.

The truth is, this will work.  It will have bumps, as any major new law does... but in the end, Torie, people like you will be left holding the flaming bag of sh**t that you've been trying to lob at healthcare reform... and your outdated, falsified ideas (which you seem very confident and proud of) will be even more irrelevant and delusional than they already are.
All of this is generally correct, but it misses the key point that the Republican Party believes with all its soul and all its might that poor people do not deserve healthcare because they are lazy Untermenschen. Ensuring that all citizens have access to healthcare demolishes their moral paradigm where the lazy poor people get what they deserve, and the right is supremely pissed about it.
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Harry
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2013, 11:51:47 PM »

Remember, if you're one of the rare people who makes above 400% of the FPL but has to buy individual insurance anyway, you should be able to buy off-exchange insurance directly from the insurance companies for a lower price.  (It is assumed that people buying exchange insurance will be both riskier and less price-conscious).

Therefore, no one is going to have to pay the inflated exchange "prices".
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King
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2013, 12:51:35 AM »

Torie, it's really telling that the GOP is desperate to defund Obamacare right before implementation than have a post-implementation election give them a mandate (winning back the Senate, gains in the House) to repeal.

Even if you feel there will be negative fiscal repercussions from this bill, one year wouldn't do any damage long term if the program is a failure. 

If Obamacare really is terrible, the best course of action would be to let it be fully implemented and then waltz in with the landslide victory on a repeal mandate.
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barfbag
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2013, 03:52:43 AM »

Basically I got this from the article:  Old, crotchety Republicans hate Obama and government.  They know when Obamacare is implemented, it will move forward with relatively minimal disruption, and will become very popular among the American populace.

And that's what they're afraid of.  They're afraid that it'll work.  Why?  Because they had absolutely no part in it.  They're panicking now because when it works out relatively smoothly, more people are insured, and health care costs continue to decline... the GOP and their dying, irrelevant base will be saddled with all the obvious bullsh**t they've been spewing for 2 years now.  They'll be tied to the 40+ votes to try and defund the program.  That must scare the sh**t out of people like you Torie.

Continue to stay in your bubble of delusion and self grandeur.  Continue to support people who think that they can "connect" with young people by dressing up people in Uncle Sam clown suits and 'scare' them when he tries to poke and prod at their vaginas and buttholes... the condescension is unbearable.

The truth is, this will work.  It will have bumps, as any major new law does... but in the end, Torie, people like you will be left holding the flaming bag of sh**t that you've been trying to lob at healthcare reform... and your outdated, falsified ideas (which you seem very confident and proud of) will be even more irrelevant and delusional than they already are.
All of this is generally correct, but it misses the key point that the Republican Party believes with all its soul and all its might that poor people do not deserve healthcare because they are lazy Untermenschen. Ensuring that all citizens have access to healthcare demolishes their moral paradigm where the lazy poor people get what they deserve, and the right is supremely pissed about it.

This is the exact opposite of what is true. What's with the partisanship?
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jfern
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2013, 04:13:16 AM »

If no one was subsidizing anyone, it wouldn't be insurance.
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