Survey for Protestants

[12th Doctor]

3. No, not worship. If I'm not mistaken, they pray to the saints as mediators between themselves and God, which is a little weird if you ask me, but certainly not worship.

You are mistaken.  As Catholics we pray with the saints directly to God.  By praying with others, our prays are strengthened, as Jesus tells us to "pray for one another".

[12th Doctor]

3-Do you believe Catholics worship Mary?
Yes.  They pray to her.  That is worship of someone other than God, which is forbidden by the Ten Commandments.

Wrong again.  We pray through Mary, not to Mary.  Just as I decribed before with the Saints.  Jesus tells us to pray for one another and ask for each others prayers.  We do not "worship" Mary.  Glory goes to the Trinity and the Trinity alone.  We celebrate MAry as a special intercessory, as she is the Mother of God.  That's it.

Starting to get a clear picture here BRTD?

[12th Doctor]

3-Do you believe Catholics worship Mary?

i know that Mexican Catholics worship the Virgin of Gualdalupe as their patron saint and mother of Christ, so from an outsider's point of view it certainly looks that way.  not that it bothers me of course -i have done similar when i lived in Japan, paying respects to various deities in Shinto shrines. 

in the end though, are we not worshipping the one god in all his manifestations, images, and names?  i believe so, and that is what ultimately unites all religions no matter how many gods and goddesses they may worship and honor -there is no such thing as there being one true faith or one true path to heaven or enlightenment. 

WRONG WRONG WRONG.  How many times do I have to say this.  Catholics do not "pray to saints".  That is a lie that was started by Protestants that has become so common that some Catholics who don't know their faith even believe it now.  There is no God, but the Holy Trinity and we worship only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  We pray with Mary and the Saints, not to them.

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WOW!!! If this isn't a classic anti-Catholic argument, I don't know what is.  People have been using this one since the 1820's. 

"John Kennedy (or Al Smith) can't be President, because he would take orders directly from the Vatican.  This is as idiotic as the myth that Catholics have duel citizenship.

[12th Doctor]

So BRTD, was this whole thing meant to prove me wrong.  Because, so far it a back fired on you hideously.

[12th Doctor]

It's good to see a Catholic truly defending himself, and I commend you for it, as I think Catholics get a bad rap all too often.  May I just suggest you not be so pugnacious?

Thank you.

I appologize.  To say that this is a touchy subject for me is an understatement.  I don't mean to be offensive, and I certainly do not want to let on that I am somehow anti-Protestant, because I am not.

I just find it unbelievable that people can't see what is obvious, even when I go to such great pains to try to explain it to them.

[12th Doctor]

I would also like to point out that I think those who have answered so far are trying to bury their true feelings.

All have said that they think that Catholics are Christians.

However, many have said that they do think that we worship saints and Mary.

This is a contradition.  No one who worships anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be a Christian.

Either these people don't seme to recongnize the contradiction, or they are burying it for PC purposes, but still think it.

[12th Doctor]

It's good to see a Catholic truly defending himself, and I commend you for it, as I think Catholics get a bad rap all too often.  May I just suggest you not be so pugnacious?

Thank you.

I appologize.  To say that this is a touchy subject for me is an understatement.  I don't mean to be offensive, and I certainly do not want to let on that I am somehow anti-Protestant, because I am not.

I just find it unbelievable that people can't see what is obvious, even when I go to such great pains to try to explain it to them.

Yes, I fully understand; I doubt there are many Catholics that are anti-Protestant (as much as it pains me to say it, there are definitely more Protestants who are anti-Catholic), but I think that the Catholics and Protestants should put aside their differences for the time being to present to a chaotic world a united church, one that isn't filled with partisan strife and contradictions.  At a time when terrorists present a threat to the world's leading country, poverty and starvation are rampant in the Third World, and people are dying everyday thanks to preventable diseases, the world needs a united church more than ever.

I think that we must put aside our differences as well.  Mind you, please, this all started just because I stated that Ethnic Catholics are a minority group.  It was then claimed that I was looking for pity for being Catholic.  It was at that point that the whole conversation tunred to anti-Catholicism.  Stupid, really.

[12th Doctor]

So BRTD, was this whole thing meant to prove me wrong.  Because, so far it a back fired on you hideously.

The only person who has said the loony stuff you claim all Protestants believe is Richius. And how many "yes, no, no, no"'s do we have?

Altough I am aware that the official doctrine of the Church does not worship Mary, a lot of Catholics really go to excesses in their "devotions", so much that they are effectively commiting idolatry. If you don't believe me, you should pay a visit to Fatima.

my opinion as well.

Several people have said that they believe that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints.

You just admitted that you believe this.

[12th Doctor]

Two questions:

1) How does "pray for one another" translate into "pray with dead people?"

2) Praying, or consulting with the dead (saints, or Mary), is witchcraft, which is prohibited by God.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I left my Bible up at school, so you will have to wait a few hours for me to smash you into the ground for this.

But... Amen.  Amen.  I say to you.  It will happen.

[12th Doctor]

1-Do you believe Catholics are Christian?

2-Do you believe Catholics are a cult?

3-Do you believe Catholics worship Mary?

4-Do you believe Catholics worship the Pope?

Supersoulty claims this is believed by most Protestants.

My answers:

1-yes
2-no
3-no
4-no

Believe it or not, most people on this board are not most protestants.  Many--and I'm not even saying most or even a largely significant number--are really anti-Catholic, and most where I live, rural Arkansas, are.  So, Supersoulty isn't wrong, and I don't care how much you try to disprove it, you just can't.

That's an important point to remember.

[12th Doctor]

Two questions:

1) How does "pray for one another" translate into "pray with dead people?"

2) Praying, or consulting with the dead (saints, or Mary), is witchcraft, which is prohibited by God.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I left my Bible up at school, so you will have to wait a few hours for me to smash you into the ground for this.

But... Amen.  Amen.  I say to you.  It will happen.

Okay, first off (and I don't even need my Bible for this point it is so obvious).  Just look at John 3:16:
 
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

No one dies in Christ!  We live in Christ!  There are no dead people in Heaven.  Only the living.

Clearly, you are refering to when Saul visits the Witch of Endor.  The differences that he conjours up spirits to give him advice.  How you can compare the two is beyond me.
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If you need more:

Mark 12:26-27

"For he is the God of the living, not of the dead".
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Revelation 6:9-11

"9
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
10
They cried out in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"
11
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been."
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As you can see, God listens to the pleas of those who have been martyred bearing witness to him.
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Romans 8:35-39

35
What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
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As it is written: "For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered."
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No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.
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For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers,
39
nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Revelation 20:4

4
Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

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Now that I have shown that no one dies in Christ, I will continue on to obliterate your argument.
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1 Timothy 2:1-7
1
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
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for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
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who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
5
For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,
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who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.
7
For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
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Revelation 5:7-10

7
He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne.
8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
9
They sang a new hymn: "Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation.
10
You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on earth."
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The elders are offering up the prayers of people to God.
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Hebrews 12:1-2

1
 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us
2
while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith. For the sake of the joy that lay before him he endured the cross, despising its shame, and has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God.
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Who are these witnesses?  Angels and saints.
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2 Thessalonians 1:11-12

11
To this end, we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and powerfully bring to fulfillment every good purpose and every effort of faith,
12
that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, in accord with the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.

[12th Doctor]

You cannot know for sure someone is in Heaven.  God knows people, not the pope.  Some of the saints may very well not be in Heaven.  Thus, praying with them, or communicating with them, is witchcraft.

That matters not.  If I ask a murder to pray for me, am I commiting an offense in God's eyes.  Clearly, those in Hell can petition for the living, even so.  Look at Luke 16:19-30:

19
"There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day.
20
And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21
who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores.
22
When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,
23
and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24
And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.'
25
Abraham replied, 'My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.
26
Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.'
27
He said, 'Then I beg you, father, send him to my father's house,
28
for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.'
29
But Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.'
30
He said, 'Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31
Then Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.'"
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God did not listen to the man, but to assume that God will be offended if we ask someone in Hell to pray for us is simple narrow-mindedness.

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God punish Saul because he did not trust in God's word, given through the priests, and instead went to a witch to conjure a spirit.

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They aren't dead.

[12th Doctor]

In Exodus 20:4-5, we read:  "4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;"  Yet, when I observe Roman Catholics, I see something completely different.  Many Catholics go to the front of the church and fall on their knees in front of a cross, or a priest (to receive communion).  God very specifically commanded that we do not make an idol and bow down before it (such as the cross), or before other people (such as the priest).

Exodus 25:18-20

17
 "You shall then make a propitiatory of pure gold, two cubits and a half long, and one and a half cubits wide.
18
 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory,
19
fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end.
20
The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.
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Engraven Images Commanded By God
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Numbers 21:8-9

8
 and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover."
9
 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered

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Engraven Images Commanded By God For Healing
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1 Kings 6:23-29

23
In the sanctuary were two cherubim, each ten cubits high, made of olive wood.
24
Each wing of a cherub measured five cubits so that the space from wing tip to wing tip of each was ten cubits.
25
The cherubim were identical in size and shape,
26
and each was exactly ten cubits high.
27
The cherubim were placed in the inmost part of the temple, with their wings spread wide, so that one wing of each cherub touched a side wall while the other wing, pointing toward the middle of the room, touched the corresponding wing of the second cherub.
28
The cherubim, too, were overlaid with gold.
29
The walls on all sides of both the inner and the outer rooms had carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers.
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Ingraven Images In the Most Holy House of God
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Joshua 5:13-15

13
 While Joshua was near Jericho, he raised his eyes and saw one who stood facing him, drawn sword in hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you one of us or of our enemies?"
14
He replied, "Neither. I am the captain of the host of the LORD and I have just arrived." Then Joshua fell prostrate to the ground in worship, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"
15
The captain of the host of the LORD replied to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy." And Joshua obeyed.
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Joshua falls on his knees before the Angel of God
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Daniel 8:17

15
While I, Daniel, sought the meaning of the vision I had seen, a manlike figure stood before me,
16
 and on the Ulai I heard a human voice that cried out, "Gabriel, explain the vision to this man."
17
 When he came near where I was standing, I fell prostrate in terror. But he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the end time."
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Daniel falls on his knees before the angel Gabriel, one of the Saints of the Church
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Hebrews 13:7

7
Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

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Rememebr those who came before us and their teachings.  We call these people "saints".
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2 Kings 13:20-21

20
Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year.
21
Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet.
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Contact with the bones of a holy man cause healing
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Acts 5:15-16

15
Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them.
16
A large number of people from the towns in the vicinity of Jerusalem also gathered, bringing the sick and those disturbed by unclean spirits, and they were all cured.
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Peter's shaddow cures people
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Acts 19:11-12

11
So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul
12
that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
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More people cured by "Holy things".
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The cross I wear is a sign of faith.  These "holy things" have been used by the Church of God since the time of Abraham.  Holy men have been revered just as long.  One can find several examples, in Acts, of people falling down before the human messengers of Christ.

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True, the Church has nothing against marriage.  There are married preists, mostly converts from other faiths.  However, celebacy for the holy is praised in the Bible:

Matthew 19:12

12
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."
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All oaths of celebacy are taken willingly.  Whoever can do this, should.
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Jeremiah 16:1-4

1
This message came to me from the LORD:
2
Do not marry any woman; you shall not have sons or daughters in this place,
3
for thus says the LORD concerning the sons and daughters who will be born in this place, the mothers who will give them birth, the fathers who will beget them in this land:
4
Of deadly disease they shall die. Unlamented and unburied they will lie like dung on the ground. Sword and famine will make an end of them, and their corpses will become food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the field.
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God comands Jeremiah not to marry.  It is not his fate. He is to serve God
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1 Corinthians

32
I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.
33
But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
34
and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
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Paul recommends celibacy for full time ministers.
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[12th Doctor]

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Mary is not a mediator of man.  She is seen as a Holy figure and venerated for that.  Clearly, she has influence over Christ.  Just look at the Wedding at Cana.  Christ did not want to preform the miracle because, it wasn't "his time".  She told him to do it, and he obeyed.  That is not to say that Mary has power over God, don't mistake, but her prayers are important.

Luke 1:41-48

41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
42
cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44
For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
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Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
46
And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.

It also helps to point out that Mary is the only person in the Bible, other than Christ, to be described as being "full of grace".

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Mary is most certainly the biological mother of Jesus.  She has to be in order for Jesus to be fully man.

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1 Peter 2:4-5

4
Come to him, a living stone, 3 rejected by human beings but chosen and precious in the sight of God,
5
and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
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Peter commands preists to offer spiritual sacrafices.  For who?  Us, obviously.
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This isn't to mention all of the earlier examples I mentioned, which I am sure you didn't read.

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WHAT!?!?!?  Jesus was not human?  I beg to differ.  What sect are you from?

Romans 1:3-4

3
 the gospel about his Son, descended from David according to the flesh,
4
but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Jesus is both fully God and fully divine.  As for Mary, I would go into an argument about the New Ark of the Covinent nad the new Eve as Jesus is the new Adam and such, but from what has been demonstrated thus far, you wouldn't even know what to do with it.

[12th Doctor]

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Two problems with you argueement:

1) Where does the Bible say anything against it?

Both John 3:5 and Mark 16:16 state that baptism is required to enter Heaven through Christ.

5
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
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1 Cor 15:21-22

21
 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.
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For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
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Why do all die in Adam?  Because of original sin.  Why do all live in Christ?  Because in Christ (baptism) we are releaved of it.
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Luke 18:15

15
 People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them.
16
Jesus, however, called the children to himself and said, "Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Col 2:11-12

11
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.
12
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
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Baptism replaces circumcision, which was performed on infants.
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As for the issue of those who cannot speak for themselves... why is that a problem for God.

In Matthew 8, the slave is healded because of the Centurions faith.

In Matthew 15, the Canaanite womans faith saves her daughter.

This is why we have God parents.

In Acts 16, we see two examples of whole families being baptised.  There is no mention of exemption for infants or children.

Not to mention we have documents going back to 215 AD prescribing infant batism.

2) We are baptised first and saved by our lives afterwords.  Not the other way around.

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True, the Son of Man has the authority to forgive sin.  He passed that authority onto the apolstles however.

John 20:22-23

21
 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
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 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23
 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

James 5:13-16

13
Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.
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Is anyone among you sick?  He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
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and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.  
16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.
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Here the prayers of the presbyters (early preists) forgive sin
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I'm not going to debate Purgatory with you.  that is not to say that I can't, but understanding the arguments requires an open mind, which you don't have.

[12th Doctor]

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But not for worship, or to bow down before it.

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But not for worship, or to bow down before it.

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But not for worship, or to bow down before it.

Nor are these objects worshiped by use.  You seem to think that they are, which, once again,is an anti-Catholic fallacy.  You seemed to be suggesting that the very existance of images was evil, so I corrected you on that point.  Though it is not uncommon to see even the Pope knealing before a statue in prayer (or at least, he used to) the statue is not given any significance beyond that of a tool for reflection and rememberence.  The statue is not an idol, as thes things are not seen to be acctual representations of God... one with God... as idols are seen to be.

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Although the Bible does not mention it in this case, many cases angels directly command the people to "get up" because they are not God.  I belive this happened in this case too.

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Continue to verse 18:
Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

Daniel was dreaming.[/quote]

But the Angels are venerated.  Your point is correct.  My only meaning is to show that they were seen by Holy men as being worthy of respect.  The second that Joshua discovers that the being is an angel, he pays respect to that being.  He knew the angel was not God.

Also, it matters not that Daniel was dreaming.  The dream was the way that the angel chose to reveal himself.  Thus, the dream was real, even though he was asleep.

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Remember does not mean consult with them.  Are you allowed to remember those that are not saints?[/quote]

All people who are in Heaven are "saints", by definition.  In fact, all believers on Earth are saints.  "The Saints" are simply people that the Church has recongnized, but one can ask for the prayers of any "saint" if they so choose.

The barrier of "death" means nothing.

Also, we don't "consult" in the way that you are thinking.  We ask saints for thier petitions and prayer before God.  God does the work through the Holy Spirit.

But, let's say God decides to send someone (like, say, Padre Pio) to talk to someone on Earth.  Is that any different from consulting with an angel, which is reported several times in the Bible?  I certainly don't see why it would be.

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God healed them, not the bones.[/quote]

You are absolutly correct.  He simply manifested his power through the object.  but that doesn't disprove whatever significance the object might have, because God chose that particular object, rather than say, a rock, to be a vessal of his pwer.

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The Holy Spirit was working through Peter, and the apostles.  I again iterate, Jesus did not command you to have icons and holy devices.  They do not replace Him.  I do not put my faith in these trinkets, but rather, in Jesus.[/quote]

Once again, faith in Jesus and the power of Jesus is what gives these things the ability to do what it is they do.

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There was no church of God before Jesus died.  Before then, God dealth with the world through the Israelites.  After that, the Holy Spirit which is in each of God's children.  No need for trinkets to worship or to bow down to.[/quote]

What were all the temple preists for then?  It was God who sanctioned all of that.  Anyway, that wasn't my point.  My point was that there is ntohing wrong with having a symbol of faith.  In fact, it is encouraged, often times.

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It doesn't make it right.[/quote]

The Bible doesn't appear to discourage it.  In fact, I can;t think of one instance where it is discouraged and several times that it happens without note of it being wrong.

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Yes, but Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.  I don't know of one Bishop, Cardinal, or even the Pope that married.  This is against the Bible.[/quote]

They are not allowed to be married once they take an oath of celebacy, no.  There are instances of people being married before they decide to become preists and they are admited.  It is rare, because it is such a vast change of life-style.

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Thats not quite what I said now, is it?[/quote]

You said "Jesus wasn't human, just human form.

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You are mistaken.  I am well versed in the arguments of those opposed to the possitions of the Church.  I have studied them all.  Every argument you have made today, I am familiar with.  And I am familiar with variations on them.  Heck, I'm familiar with totally different attacks on the same subjects which we brought up.  Everytime, through careful study on both sides, I have sided with the Church.

Based on many of the arguments you have made, I doubt that you have spent much time figuring out what the Catholic Church acctually has to say about these issues.

No, no hard feelings.  I never asked you to agree with me.  You stated the charges and I did my best to answer for them.  Plain and simple.

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I don't know if I am saved.  I'm sure that Judas Iscariot, called by Jesus, once thought that he was saved.  Ooops.  There is no one moment in anyones life when it suddenly dawns on us that we are saved.  Life is a journey.  We are saved through God's grace and forgivness, at the end of that journey, based on our faith and actions throughout our lives.

Jesus, who is Lord, will return for this is what he promised and when that time comes, the era of turbulance will be followed by the era of peace.

[12th Doctor]

I was raised as a Catholic and have recently gone through a major tranformation. I left the church and became  agostic, I believed there was a higher power at work, but I wasn't going acknowledge God was that supreme being and I believed that Jesus was just a carpenter who thought he was God. Then when I came to college, for whatever reason, I'm not sure, I made my peace with God and accepted him back into my life, and I finally understood the sacrifice that Jesus made for all of us, and I have felt more positive about everything since doing that. Now this is what I have to say about the Catholics.

1-I believe Catholics are Christian. They need to find a better way to teach there youth. As in my case, they were unable to reach me. I understood why I was being taught the things they were teaching me in catachism.
2-I don't think Catholics are a cult, but the chanting was pretty weird, also what's with the kneeling and standing all of the time, its very confusing.
3-I don't think they worship Mary, but they do put a lot of emphasis on her.
4-The pope is a tough subject. I never understood what the pope was there for. It always seemed like he had some divine authority over me when I was a Catholic, but I never really bought into that. He's only a man. This was one of the reasons I left the church.

So did you ever see loads of anti-Catholic discrimination while you were Catholic which soulty claims is so common?

You are seriously misinterpriting me.  I said it was wide-spread, but mostly subtle, sometimes not so subtle.

[12th Doctor]

I don't have a problem with Catholics...

But I do think the church is hypocritical in its stance on social issues while children are being molested.

I'm also tired of hearing about the Pope on the news. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn.

You don't give a damn because he is the leader of the Catholic Church.  If he were Bill Clinton or Nelson Mandela, you couldn't get enough news.

[12th Doctor]

I don't have a problem with Catholics...

But I do think the church is hypocritical in its stance on social issues while children are being molested.

I'm also tired of hearing about the Pope on the news. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn.

Yes, molestation only goes on in the Catholic Church. Lets forget all the bus drivers, protestant preachers, school teachers, neighbors, etc that molest children on a daily basis. This is exactly the kind of bigotry that SuperSoulty is referring to.

Yep, but you don't have the Protestant church telling its members how to life their life. And the ones that do, I disagree with them.

So... Jesus did not want people to live their lives for him?

[12th Doctor]

Being told that I can't jack off, use condoms, or what days I can eat meat on is not something I want a church telling me. The Pope also said you can't be a communist and Catholic, which pisses me off even though I'm not really a communist, although there are many communist Catholics in Latin America and the Phillipines.

Yeah, well the Pope acctually suffered under communism and you have not.  Maybe he has some insight that you lack.

[12th Doctor]

I don't have a problem with Catholics...

But I do think the church is hypocritical in its stance on social issues while children are being molested.

I'm also tired of hearing about the Pope on the news. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn.

Yes, molestation only goes on in the Catholic Church. Lets forget all the bus drivers, protestant preachers, school teachers, neighbors, etc that molest children on a daily basis. This is exactly the kind of bigotry that SuperSoulty is referring to.

Yep, but you don't have the Protestant church telling its members how to life their life. And the ones that do, I disagree with them.

So... Jesus did not want people to live their lives for him?

for him. not some old man in a pointy hat. Jesus never said condoms were wrong or what days you could eat meat on.

Well, seeing as the Pope is the ambassador of Christ, visa vie St. Peter....

[12th Doctor]

I believe he has no more of a connection to God than I do.

Fine, that's your belief.  You have your and I have mine.