Final Word on Obamacare: Cheaper than Expected

[bedstuy]

No the average family will pay $7,400 more a year and not $2,500 less. Most employees would get fired for costing their company so much money, but since we're talking about the government they get away with it. I'm sick of the ruling class pushing us around.

Citation needed.

http://www.hannity.com/article/obama-s-america/17008
http://www.hannity.com/article/obama-s-america/17008
http://www.hannity.com/article/obama-s-america/17008

R u srs

I'm saying if someone in the private sector aka real world were to make an error of a $7,400 profit really being a $2,500 deficit they'd lose their job.

The article you reference cites a study that doesn't even purport to make a claim about the per year cost of insurance for an average family.

[7,052,770]

These people could still get coverage when they got sick so there's no incentive for them to purchase health insurance, taking valuable premium dollars out of the

AGAIN, you can only buy guaranteed issue insurance during specific open enrollment periods. Torie has been told over and over that you will NOT be able to enroll while you're in an ambulance,  but he always conveniently ignores it. He simply does not debate this issue in good faith.

[Torie]

These people could still get coverage when they got sick so there's no incentive for them to purchase health insurance, taking valuable premium dollars out of the

AGAIN, you can only buy guaranteed issue insurance during specific open enrollment periods. Torie has been told over and over that you will NOT be able to enroll while you're in an ambulance,  but he always conveniently ignores it. He simply does not debate this issue in good faith.

Actually, rather than ignoring it, I mentioned gap insurance in response (and more than once), and pointed out that while there are risks of going bare due to something sudden happening, if you don't have much net worth, it doesn't matter anyway. You just go to the ER like in the old days, and are judgment proof. So the consequences of going uninsured until sick are mitigated, and the incentives to go bare greater, putting aside whatever the net premium cost is. We shall see how many young people sign up, or if they don't, fail to pay the penalty. Theory is fine, but in rather short order, we are going to begin to get hard empirical data, and the era of speculation will be over.

[7,052,770]

Goddammit Torie, your solution of "just go to the emergency room and don't pay your bill," is one of the major reasons why health costs are so high in the first place.  And anyone who does that will have their credit rating ruined for life. It's honestly insulting that you would seriously suggest that as a workable solution to anyone, though I believe Mitt Romney half-heartedly advocated a similar Russian Roulette plan last year.

And this "gap insurance" nonsense you always bring up does not exist. No insurance company is going to sell a policy that pays off an already-incurred medical bill.  Even under obamacare, you buy insurance during a predetermined period, and coverage starts later, not immediately.  It will not be easy or smart to game the system.

[opebo]

I'm saying if someone in the private sector aka real world were to make an error of a $7,400 profit really being a $2,500 deficit they'd lose their job.

The private sector isn't the 'real world' - it is precisely a deception.

[Torie]

Goddammit Torie, your solution of "just go to the emergency room and don't pay your bill," is one of the major reasons why health costs are so high in the first place.  And anyone who does that will have their credit rating ruined for life. It's honestly insulting that you would seriously suggest that as a workable solution to anyone, though I believe Mitt Romney half-heartedly advocated a similar Russian Roulette plan last year.

And this "gap insurance" nonsense you always bring up does not exist. No insurance company is going to sell a policy that pays off an already-incurred medical bill.  Even under obamacare, you buy insurance during a predetermined period, and coverage starts later, not immediately.  It will not be easy or smart to game the system.

You are wrought up about this aren't you?  We shall see what the actual behavior is in due course. Be patient. You have your prediction, and I have mine.

Oh, and you have the same perception as Bushie about the effect of BK on your credit. You are just as erroneous as he is about that.

As to gap insurance, no, you get it for coverage which lasts until the next enrollment period begins, and then it expires. You can go to Lloyd's and get insurance for anything. You know what?  I am going to call my insurance brokerage client, and inquire about the gap insurance idea. We shall see what is out there, or will be soon.

Have a nice day.

[7,052,770]

Again, an uninsured person will probably be able to buy off-exchange, unsubsidized, non-guaranteed issue insurance directly from a health insurance company outside of the Exchange open enrollment periods.  However, it would be subject to underwriting, and a person already in the hospital, or who has a major injury and will need to be hospitalized soon, will be denied.  Period.  No insurance company is ever going to voluntarily sell a product that covers medical bills that are already incurred.

Yes, you might contrive unlikely scenarios where someone games the system (i.e., a person's appendix bursts in very late December, buys a guaranteed issue product that takes effect in January, lays around in agony for a few days, gets treated on January 1, promptly cancels and pays the fine the next year), but these are going to be very rare -- there just aren't that many unscrupulous people looking to cheat the system who also happen to have a major medical issue on December 30 that can wait until January.  It may (and most likely will) happen very occasionally, but nowhere near as often as you portray it.

And regardless of whether bankruptcy ruins your credit forever, or just for a while, it is downright unbelievable that you honestly advocate people to eschew buying insurance, pay the fine, and instead just go to an emergency room and refuse to pay the bill.  Let them eat cake, right?

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Given that young peoples' health care will be heavily subsidized, I just don't understand why anyone would voluntarily go without coverage. In many cases, it will be more expensive to pay the fine, especially when you consider you don't actually get anything out of paying the fine.

[Ban my account ffs!]

And, unsurprisingly, Minnesota will have the cheapest plans in the nation.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/news/2013/09/25/minnesota-health-exchange-prices.html

States that set up their own exchanges have cheaper premiums.

Wow, that is cheap insurance.  We really need to study and copy what Minnesota does in their health-care system and market to keep their costs so low.

As noted above, you are off topic here. That happens from time to time, but you should do that very sparingly I think. It can be annoying, and is a good way to generate flame wars.

Torie, I think the purpose of being a troll is to annoy and generate flame wars.  You're just telling him that he's accomplishing his goal.

Unfortunately I think it would be hard for most states to emulate Minnesota.  Much of the difference lies in deeply ingrained lifestyle differences. 

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/minn3.htm

That's a great paper done back in the early '90s about the unique political culture here.  This culture permeates everything beyond politics and is probably a major factor in why emulating policies here might not work elsewhere.

[Torie]

Harry you still don't understand gap insurance, but this conversation is too caustic for me to be able to continue with you given your penchant for personal insults. Thanks.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Harry you still don't understand gap insurance, but this conversation is too caustic for me to be able to continue with you given your penchant for personal insults. Thanks.

Calling Harry an asshole is a personal insult.  Harry pointing out that your views on this issue are asinine, uninformed, and ridiculous is hardly an insult... but is, in fact, helpful.

At the same time... I totally understand the 'well, let's wait and see' approach, especially given that you are arguing with Harry about this.  I adopt the same approach on climate change with him.  He thinks we'll return to rapid, out of control warming within a few years.  I think we'll see at least another decade of flat or falling temperatures.  I'm pretty sure I'm right... but I could be wrong.  Just like you could be wrong on Obamacare

[7,052,770]

Harry you still don't understand gap insurance, but this conversation is too caustic for me to be able to continue with you given your penchant for personal insults. Thanks.

You believe that someone already in the hospital can just magically get health insurance to pay their current bill, yet I'm the one who "doesn't understand" 

And yet someone I have a "penchant for personal insults" when I've actually never once personally insulted you, only illustrating how you are (most likely willfully) misinformed this issue.  But whatever.

ETA: Like seriously, LOL.  I just read over my posts in this thread just to make sure, and I didn't even come close to personally insulting you!

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So the "final word" is a comparison of HHS figures to previous CBO estimates for the averages of only two different scenarios?   

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Harry you still don't understand gap insurance, but this conversation is too caustic for me to be able to continue with you given your penchant for personal insults. Thanks.

Torie, no one understands gap insurance, which is why young people aren't going to buy it. You're giving the average American far too much credit. Not everyone is as smart as you, or as rich (and thus able to take the risk of footing our own medical bills).

I don't understand what you think is going to happen, because your fears really don't make much logical sense. With Obamacare, your gap coverage is subsidized COBRA. And the cost of buying insurance is surely going to be less for most people (with subsidy) than paying a fine. Not having health insurance simply doesn't make sense.

And, of course, there's this: People really really really really really want health insurance, especially those without it currently. No one wants to take your stupid bet where you risk death or harm to save a little bit of money. And by the way, have you ever tried getting health care in a hospital without insurance? Do you know how awful you get treated? My first and only non-insurance trip to the ER was a nightmarish affair where I wasn't offered painkillers.

[Ban my account ffs!]

The way I understand gap insurance is that if you lose your insurance in March... you purchase gap insurance to cover you until December of that year.... since the enrollment for traditional insurance is probably in October and begins in January of the next year.

I'm not aware of how gap insurance would work after ObamaCare... I'd assume it won't change.. because as Harry says... they won't just let you purchase gap insurance with pre existing conditions.

[Torie]

The way I understand gap insurance is that if you lose your insurance in March... you purchase gap insurance to cover you until December of that year.... since the enrollment for traditional insurance is probably in October and begins in January of the next year.

I'm not aware of how gap insurance would work after ObamaCare... I'd assume it won't change.. because as Harry says... they won't just let you purchase gap insurance with pre existing conditions.

You buy gap insurance without having pre-existing conditions (like most young folks). The gap insurance covers what happens until the next enrollment period starts, and then you sign up for Obamacare, to get the pre-existing condition covered. Those with pre-existing conditions are of course huge beneficiaries of Obamacare - as they should be, putting aside the lack of means testing.

[Ban my account ffs!]

The way I understand gap insurance is that if you lose your insurance in March... you purchase gap insurance to cover you until December of that year.... since the enrollment for traditional insurance is probably in October and begins in January of the next year.

I'm not aware of how gap insurance would work after ObamaCare... I'd assume it won't change.. because as Harry says... they won't just let you purchase gap insurance with pre existing conditions.

You buy gap insurance without having pre-existing conditions (like most young folks). The gap insurance covers what happens until the next enrollment period starts, and then you sign up for Obamacare, to get the pre-existing condition covered. Those with pre-existing conditions are of course huge beneficiaries of Obamacare - as they should be, putting aside the lack of means testing.

I'll rephrase that:  Gap insurance is exactly what it sounds like.

[7,052,770]

The way I understand gap insurance is that if you lose your insurance in March... you purchase gap insurance to cover you until December of that year.... since the enrollment for traditional insurance is probably in October and begins in January of the next year.

I'm not aware of how gap insurance would work after ObamaCare... I'd assume it won't change.. because as Harry says... they won't just let you purchase gap insurance with pre existing conditions.

You buy gap insurance without having pre-existing conditions (like most young folks). The gap insurance covers what happens until the next enrollment period starts, and then you sign up for Obamacare, to get the pre-existing condition covered. Those with pre-existing conditions are of course huge beneficiaries of Obamacare - as they should be, putting aside the lack of means testing.

Yes, we are on the same page in that someone could buy health insurance outside of an enrollment period by going straight to the company, assuming you have no pre-existing conditions.

But your theoretical scheme in which an uninsured just "buys gap insurance" once he runs up a huge bill will never work -- not only is he unlikely to make it through the underwriting process, even if he does, the insurance WILL NOT cover and charges incurred before the effective date of the insurance.

[Sbane]

Harry you still don't understand gap insurance, but this conversation is too caustic for me to be able to continue with you given your penchant for personal insults. Thanks.

So you buy gap insurance but it doesn't cover the reason why you actually bought that insurance (obviously I am sure you realize no insurance company is going to cover a pre-existing condition outside of Obamacare). How is that helpful?

[7,052,770]

Harry you still don't understand gap insurance, but this conversation is too caustic for me to be able to continue with you given your penchant for personal insults. Thanks.

So you buy gap insurance but it doesn't cover the reason why you actually bought that insurance (obviously I am sure you realize no insurance company is going to cover a pre-existing condition outside of Obamacare). How is that helpful?

It's not. It's as useless as "Go to the emergency room but don't pay your bill."

[Sbane]

And going to the emergency room and not paying your bill, if you can afford health insurance, is absolutely irresponsible behavior that should be punished. Like I mentioned before, these people should not get guaranteed issue if they did not make any effort to buy insurance or receive some sort of waiver due to income or some other hardship. They should be left to die on the streets as far as I am concerned.

[7,052,770]

And going to the emergency room and not paying your bill, if you can afford health insurance, is absolutely irresponsible behavior that should be punished. Like I mentioned before, these people should not get guaranteed issue if they did not make any effort to buy insurance or receive some sort of waiver due to income or some other hardship. They should be left to die on the streets as far as I am concerned.

We could avoid that by scrapping the individual mandate, and tweaking the open enrollment so that you have three options every October through December:
1. provide the government with proof that you have health insurance through a group plan, Medicare/Medicaid, or an off-exchange individual plan that you bought
2. buy insurance on the exchange individually
3. if you don't do one of the above, the government automatically picks an Exchange plan for you and sends you the information.  If you never pay your bills, the government pays it for you and settles up at tax time.

Boom, 0% uninsured.  Obamacare is going to be great for the country, but it's not 100% perfect.  In a couple years when people love it and Republicans understand that, we'll probably pass some tweaks to make it even better.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

And going to the emergency room and not paying your bill, if you can afford health insurance, is absolutely irresponsible behavior that should be punished. Like I mentioned before, these people should not get guaranteed issue if they did not make any effort to buy insurance or receive some sort of waiver due to income or some other hardship. They should be left to die on the streets as far as I am concerned.

So you want to run a health insurance and income check before you bring anyone in for emergencies? Well if your aim is for people to be left to die in the streets, that's exactly what you'll get then.

[Sbane]

And going to the emergency room and not paying your bill, if you can afford health insurance, is absolutely irresponsible behavior that should be punished. Like I mentioned before, these people should not get guaranteed issue if they did not make any effort to buy insurance or receive some sort of waiver due to income or some other hardship. They should be left to die on the streets as far as I am concerned.

So you want to run a health insurance and income check before you bring anyone in for emergencies? Well if your aim is for people to be left to die in the streets, that's exactly what you'll get then.

Meh, denying them guaranteed issue is enough as it will ruin them financially. They should take personal responsibility for their actions. If you can afford to pay for insurance, and you don't due to either ideology or just plain selfishness since you can get free care at the ER and then sign up for Obamacare later, that behavior should be punished. Since you can apply for a waiver from health insurance due to hardship, there is really no excuse.

[King]

I certainly trust the right wing radio hosts to analyze statistical projections of health care costs after the bang up job they did with unskewing the polls in 2012.