SENATE BILL: Judiciary Branch Realignment Amendment (Failed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment has been adopted. Unfortunately, I am out of time for today.



Amendments are easy to process. Whether or not they take for ever and hurt the Senate is a factor of how valid that are and how much the sponsor and member are paying attention to them. The workload problems stem not from members having too much to do, but the unwillingness on the part of so many to do anything even on issues they allegedly care about.

[President Tyrion]

Amendment offered:

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[tmthforu94]

Introducing it for Tyrion...

"I hereby introduce the following amendment for consideration"

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[bore]

I may as well introduce the change to the number of people on the People's court:

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Sponsor: NC Yankee for Governor Tyrion
[/quote]

[President Tyrion]

In the absence of one of the Justices' opinions, I'm going to go ahead and say that a 5-man jury is acceptable, since it seems the Senators are on board with it.

I'll accept Bore's amendment as friendly (which is obviously just a token gesture, since I'm not a Senator, but my support is a mild plea to Yankee to do the same ).

And thanks tmth for officially introducing that amendment for me! That's friendly too, of course, since I wrote it!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

That I can send profanity laced demands to the likes of bgwah and Marokai Blue, just shows you what you can accomplish with hard work.

I will take care of the amendments in a minute.

[President Tyrion]

Alright, Senators. Any other thoughts on the bill. What are your positions?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I sat on my hands in the hopes that someone I PMed would bother to respond. Guess not...

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object

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Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Хahar 🤔]

This is good legislation and it has my support.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendments have been adopted.

Tyrion, Poirot asked a question in the Senate Analysis thread about whether or not people could opt out of serving on the People's Court. How does it work currently with the text as it is? Is it like a regular jury system in that regard?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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[President Tyrion]

The amendments have been adopted.

Tyrion, Poirot asked a question in the Senate Analysis thread about whether or not people could opt out of serving on the People's Court. How does it work currently with the text as it is? Is it like a regular jury system in that regard?

Oh, I don't even keep an eye on that thread. Well, with the text as-is, I would say that the Supreme Court would have the power to determine the legitimacy of opting out, because they can determine the definition of "qualified" and that could include "willing."

So I'd say it's NOT like a regular jury system if the Supreme Court were to choose for it to be so, but it also could be, if the SC decides to prevent adjudicators from dropping out. As it stands, it's merely a judgment call on the SC's part. We could tighten that up if people would like.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If we allow for opt outs you risk no one doing it. If you don't, you risk having inactives participating in it. A difficult set of limits on either side here.

[President Tyrion]

If we allow for opt outs you risk no one doing it. If you don't, you risk having inactives participating in it. A difficult set of limits on either side here.

I would hope there would be some way for the SC to ensure that only active players are under consideration in the first place. After that point, I think mandatory participation might be necessary.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So we are talkign an activity standard, correct?

What should it be, I mean what would be an effective measurement of that? Surely, post amounts would be limited in effectiveness in this regard.

[President Tyrion]

So we are talkign an activity standard, correct?

What should it be, I mean what would be an effective measurement of that? Surely, post amounts would be limited in effectiveness in this regard.

I would assume an activity standard would be necessary, but I would allow the SC to determine it.

It's a difficult question, though. Posts in the Atlasia boards over the past 3 months would be the best way, but it's nigh impossible to keep track of, and frankly not worth the effort.

[Poirot]

I usually try to stay in the Senate protest thread because I think it's more appropriate to express my opinion there but it seems to be more direct coming here.

I am not jumping with joy at the prospect of being drafted on the people's court. If I wanted to have a role in the judicial system I would apply for regional justice when there is a new term coming for that position in my region.

I am not very interested in having to hear lawyers give long speeches, trying to understand the written law, perhaps have to decide the meaning of words, or write a decision. Some citizens might like it and want it. I think there are more competent and knowledgeable people to apply justice than me..

It seems difficult to even get citizens to vote, it could be difficult to get people to sit on court for a boring case. There is a chance the citizens randomly chosen might not take their role seriously or be competent.

I would prefer if justice was in the hands of people interested in that role, have been deemed competent and vetted and will take the job seriously, and those are professional justices.   

[ZuWo]

I usually try to stay in the Senate protest thread because I think it's more appropriate to express my opinion there but it seems to be more direct coming here.

I am not jumping with joy at the prospect of being drafted on the people's court. If I wanted to have a role in the judicial system I would apply for regional justice when there is a new term coming for that position in my region.

I am not very interested in having to hear lawyers give long speeches, trying to understand the written law, perhaps have to decide the meaning of words, or write a decision. Some citizens might like it and want it. I think there are more competent and knowledgeable people to apply justice than me..

It seems difficult to even get citizens to vote, it could be difficult to get people to sit on court for a boring case. There is a chance the citizens randomly chosen might not take their role seriously or be competent.

I would prefer if justice was in the hands of people interested in that role, have been deemed competent and vetted and will take the job seriously, and those are professional justices.   

I echo these concerns. No Atlasian citizen should be forced to serve on a court. There's probably no way to enforce that anyway if someone refuses to participate, and I think many would refuse to do that.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

After torturing several Atlasions "esteemed in the matter of law", I have extracted concerns about the proceess by appellate function would proceed should the Supreme Court determine that the People's Court acted in error.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I'm not even sure I understand the point of this, even setting aside the silliness of randomly choosing a powerful judicial body by essentially throwing darts at a registration list.

[President Tyrion]

Sorry folks, I've been active on the Forum for the last couple of days but somehow missed this thread (and also some of the spiciest conversation about the issue in a while, so I'd like to address it).

I usually try to stay in the Senate protest thread because I think it's more appropriate to express my opinion there but it seems to be more direct coming here.

No one ever seems to have a problem with me, and I butt in a lot.

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I do sympathize with this point, and any attempt to make participation in the Court process will not be taken lightly. As it stands, my opinion is that we should require participation, as it is essentially a civic duty to participate in the court. Furthermore, I would be wary of voluntary response bias. Those who are voluntarily submitting themselves would be more likely to have strong opinions on the issue than not, and that can skew the Court one way or another.

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I don't think that 3 people (plus the regional justices) are the only people who are competent and will take the job seriously. We're all here voluntarily, and most court issues are about electoral reform or strict constitutionality, and that seemingly plays into the interests of most people here. Obviously, some aren't interested, but to say only a few are qualified is a bit harsh. It's not as if there's a bar exam in Atlasia. 

Naturally, the flip side of the coin is this: I don't intend to demean the position of justice. Juries have existed for centuries without speaking ill or demeaning the position of justice, and every effort should be made for it to stay that way. Justices will continue to serve the very important purpose of overseeing the court and preventing any biases from presenting themselves.

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Well, there are ways to enforce it, but depending on how hard you want to force it, it could be overly draconian. Not participating in a trial (if selected), could cause some sort of electoral penalty on the scale of missing federal elections. That's not my preferred solution; I would hope we could find a lighter penalty. With that said, there should be an incentive system in place to keep people interested; naturally, some won't.

[President Tyrion]

After torturing several Atlasions "esteemed in the matter of law", I have extracted concerns about the proceess by appellate function would proceed should the Supreme Court determine that the People's Court acted in error.

What do you mean?

The Supreme Court would hear the case, geared toward proving that the People's Court acted in error. If there's sufficient evidence to prove that, or sufficient evidence to overturn the People's decision, then the SC can state as such. Is there some issue with the wording in the amendment?

I'm not even sure I understand the point of this, even setting aside the silliness of randomly choosing a powerful judicial body by essentially throwing darts at a registration list.

Well, having a right to a trial by one's peers isn't silliness, if you ask the ancients. That the peers would be randomized is a mere formality, and it shouldn't really be any other way.

Why judicial reform is necessary, though? Well, let's look at the current case, Atlasia vs. Xahar. That case has been going, what, 5 weeks, and yet the people are mostly in the dark about it. It's actually a rather important issue; the public remains unaware of what the NMAM seems to do on a daily basis. It's rather frustrating to me that a party could act the way they do, be sued in court multiple times, and still have a vast majority of the people unaware of some of their actions. But it's not just that....

The Judiciary Branch is by far the least transparent branch of government. While this is an election simulation, we have a whole branch, quietly governed by bureaucracy, with little or no interaction with the general public. It's not fun, and it perpetuates an image of Atlasia as an antiquated, shuttered club.

There are more reasons for this as well; I already outlined them upthread.

[Хahar 🤔]

The fundamental problem we have (and have always had) is that the judiciary is cut off from the rest of Atlasia and dominated by people who are not active in the rest of Atlasia and largely unknown to the great mass of Atlasians.

[ZuWo]

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Well, there are ways to enforce it, but depending on how hard you want to force it, it could be overly draconian. Not participating in a trial (if selected), could cause some sort of electoral penalty on the scale of missing federal elections. That's not my preferred solution; I would hope we could find a lighter penalty. With that said, there should be an incentive system in place to keep people interested; naturally, some won't.

I don't claim to be capable of reading the minds of other Atlasians, but I'm pretty sure that if participation in the court is made mandatory and penalties are proposed for Atlasians who have no interest in being part of it, this amendment has no chance of being ratified.