Hobby Lobby, not just exemption from birth control mandate

[Brittain33]

Hobby Lobby is suing the federal government I believe because providing health care to its employees that includes contraception violates the owner's religious values, and he is protected under the First Amendment.

Do you know what else Hobby Lobby disapproves of for religious reason? Jews.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/05/hobby-lobby-apologizes-after-reported-n-j-employee-remarks-on-judaism/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[DC Al Fine]

Meh, I don't expect the kosher butcher to carry bacon.

[Brittain33]

Meh, I don't expect the kosher butcher to carry bacon.

I don't see how that analogy holds water. Even Hobby Lobby management doesn't agree with that perspective - they pretty quickly backpedaled and decided to start carrying Hanukkah merchandise in the areas where there are customers for it.

[DC Al Fine]

Meh, I don't expect the kosher butcher to carry bacon.

I don't see how that analogy holds water. Even Hobby Lobby management doesn't agree with that perspective - they pretty quickly backpedaled and decided to start carrying Hanukkah merchandise in the areas where there are customers for it.

No my point is what Hobby Lobby decides to sell or not sell is their business.

[memphis]

They sell Christian bric a brac. Why should they have to sell Jewish tchochkes?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

They sell Christian bric a brac. Why should they have to sell Jewish tchochkes?

Because it is their store, and they have a right to sell what market they want to. Again, why does the Jewish butcher not sell bacon, as DC Al pointed out.

[Brittain33]

No my point is what Hobby Lobby decides to sell or not sell is their business.

Why do companies hire public relations agencies, then? 

[Badger]

<sigh> No one is claiming HL HAS to sell Judaic bric-a-brac, either as a legal mandate or an economic one.

Based on the comments from the retail level managers, the owner's spokesperson, the ENTIRELY consistant history of HL's owner inserting his evangelist views into company management decisions, and the apparent potential market for such products in a nearby town with a large Jewish population, it's abundantly clear the absence of such products on HL shelves has far less to do with supply and demand than with anti-semitism.

Yes, HL's owner has the right not to sell Hanahkuh-themed stuff because it offends him. BUT, at the same time the aggrieved customer here has the EXACT SAME FREEDOM to voice his objection to Hobby Lobby stores 'not catering to your type', and for a majority of the public to agree that's a pretty crappy attitude of narrow-mindedness and barely-latent anti-semetism that makes them an unattractive place to shop.

One would think that all but the extremist types would cheer Hobby Lobby's being called out on such nasty, unneighborly behavior without government intervention. But instead we have The Usual Suspects decrying political correctness or something forcing a religious bigot to change and the resulting death of 'freedom', yadda-yadda-yaada. ::-)

[TJ in Oregon]

How is the owner a narrow-minded bigot or anti-semite for not selling Jewish goods? Is one not allowed to have theological views at all without being a bigot these days?

[Badger]

T

How is the owner a narrow-minded bigot or anti-semite for not selling Jewish goods? Is one not allowed to have theological views at all without being a bigot these days?

Sorry TJ, but running a business that 'doesn't cater to your (Jewish) kind' and doesn't sell want to sell Hannnakah stuff to keep their store from being too 'Jewey', no matter if it has a divinity degree's worth of 'theological' study behind it, is at heart rather bigoted.

Just as it really doesn't matter how much Bob Jones University's ban on inter-racial dating was theorhetically based on (e.g.) the Story of Ham, it was still fundamentally racist.

[Link]

<sigh> No one is claiming HL HAS to sell Judaic bric-a-brac, either as a legal mandate or an economic one.

Based on the comments from the retail level managers, the owner's spokesperson, the ENTIRELY consistant history of HL's owner inserting his evangelist views into company management decisions, and the apparent potential market for such products in a nearby town with a large Jewish population, it's abundantly clear the absence of such products on HL shelves has far less to do with supply and demand than with anti-semitism.

Yes, HL's owner has the right not to sell Hanahkuh-themed stuff because it offends him. BUT, at the same time the aggrieved customer here has the EXACT SAME FREEDOM to voice his objection to Hobby Lobby stores 'not catering to your type', and for a majority of the public to agree that's a pretty crappy attitude of narrow-mindedness and barely-latent anti-semetism that makes them an unattractive place to shop.

One would think that all but the extremist types would cheer Hobby Lobby's being called out on such nasty, unneighborly behavior without government intervention. But instead we have The Usual Suspects decrying political correctness or something forcing a religious bigot to change and the resulting death of 'freedom', yadda-yadda-yaada. ::-)

^This pretty much.

It's totally legal but what kind of an @$$hole wouldn't sell Hanukkah stuff?!  And why would anyone object to us calling him an @$$hole?

[TJ in Oregon]

Sure the employee who said "we don't cater to your (Jewish) kind" or wanting to stop the place from becoming too 'Jewey' is clearly anti-semetic, but is simply refusing to stock goods of another religion really bigoted? Not selling something you don't believe in a bit different than bans on racial dating. For one thing religious items are actually theological in nature whereas dating isn't itself an item of religious practice. Are you trying to say they're equivalent? Have we really reached the point where only selling religious items from your own religion is offensive? What's next, will only going to a church of your own religion be considered bigoted and offensive?

[Badger]

EJ

Sure the employee who said "we don't cater to your (Jewish) kind" or wanting to stop the place from becoming too 'Jewey' is clearly anti-semetic, but is simply refusing to stock goods of another religion really bigoted? Not selling something you don't believe in a bit different than bans on racial dating. For one thing religious items are actually theological in nature whereas dating isn't itself an item of religious practice. Are you trying to say they're equivalent? Have we really reached the point where only selling religious items from your own religion is offensive? What's next, will only going to a church of your own religion be considered bigoted and offensive?

I think this inane 'where does it end' slippery slope straw man argument is the source of opposition.

If you really think that criticizing the owner of a nationwide business owner not selling jewish trinkets next to christian trinkets because the former offends him is only a couple steps from looking down on people only attending their church of choice, well, then this conversation is officially at an end, with me pinching the bridge of my nose and sadly shaking my head.

'If we private citizens voice our objections to $hitty narrow-mindedness, WHERE will it end??' Is that REALLY what we want want to stand on?

[TJ in Oregon]

Of course I don't and you don't believe this the same as banning interracial dating either. I simply don't understand the logic in your outrage here, why is it so horrible for him not to sell Jewish trinkets if he isn't Jewish? I don't understand why you're all mad at this guy.

[Bacon King]

Of course I don't and you don't believe this the same as banning interracial dating either. I simply don't understand the logic in your outrage here, why is it so horrible for him not to sell Jewish trinkets if he isn't Jewish? I don't understand why you're all mad at this guy.

I think you're misunderstanding here.

He's not a horrible person for the fact that he doesn't allow his store to carry Jewish stuff; he's a horrible person for his stated reasons for why he doesn't allow his store to carry Jewish stuff. This is why Badger included quotes from him.

[TJ in Oregon]

Of course I don't and you don't believe this the same as banning interracial dating either. I simply don't understand the logic in your outrage here, why is it so horrible for him not to sell Jewish trinkets if he isn't Jewish? I don't understand why you're all mad at this guy.

I think you're misunderstanding here.

He's not a horrible person for the fact that he doesn't allow his store to carry Jewish stuff; he's a horrible person for his stated reasons for why he doesn't allow his store to carry Jewish stuff. This is why Badger included quotes from him.

The quotes Badger provided weren't from the owner though, they were from some random employee in New Jersey, which is why the company issued an apology when the would-be customer called up and complained. Did the owner actually say anything like that?

According to the article, this was the owner's statement:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I just wanted to clarify one additional thing: if I owned a hobby shop I would have absolutely no problem selling Jewish trinkets. But I am somewhat bewildered by the idea that a non-Jewish owner not selling Jewish trinkets in his stores even though he sells Christian trinkets is worthy of the labels "nasty, unneighborly behavior", "religious bigot", "$hitty narrow-mindedness", and "anti-semitism".

[memphis]

They sell Christian bric a brac. Why should they have to sell Jewish tchochkes?

Because it is their store, and they have a right to sell what market they want to. Again, why does the Jewish butcher not sell bacon, as DC Al pointed out.

I was agreeing with you....

[Brittain33]

I agree it's not a big deal and the response from corporate shows that they're handling this correctly. It's just funny because this store is in the news because of their crusade against Obamacare.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

They sell Christian bric a brac. Why should they have to sell Jewish tchochkes?

Because it is their store, and they have a right to sell what market they want to. Again, why does the Jewish butcher not sell bacon, as DC Al pointed out.

I was agreeing with you....

I misread it as "why should they not sell Jewish tchnockes?" My mistake.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Hobby Lobby's Hanukkah section is pretty threadbare, but they have some good deals in the Kwanzaa aisle.

[jimrtex]

Based on the comments from the retail level managers, the owner's spokesperson, the ENTIRELY consistant history of HL's owner inserting his evangelist views into company management decisions, and the apparent potential market for such products in a nearby town with a large Jewish population, it's abundantly clear the absence of such products on HL shelves has far less to do with supply and demand than with anti-semitism.

You are reading a lot into the the story based on your own prejudices.

There is no evidence that the store employee in New Jersey was a manager.  If someone asked about Hannakuh stuff, and was told that they didn't have any, and then got in the employee's face about why not, etc.  They might be dismissed with we don't cater to you people.  Maybe the shopper was complaining about the stores being closed on Sunday, but open on Saturday.  What most people might consider to be rude, probably is not considered rude in New Jersey or New York.

It sounds like the first person that was contacted at the corporate office was saying that goods carried in local stores are a local decision.   Even if J% of the population in an area are Jewish, they are not likely to spend as much per capita as is spent by X% of the population that celebrates Christmas.  Was the customer looking for a 15 foot high inflatable Menorah?  Probably not.

If J% of the population is significant, there are likely stores in the area that do cater to that niche market.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Let me know when people start turning their houses into Hanukkah displays with 100 kilowatts or more of lights.  (Or more probably where.)  My understanding is that there are far fewer trinkets associated with the Jewish holidays than the current Christian kitschization of Christmas and Easter, and a lot of what there is gets covered by the generic holiday decorations.  Even in areas with 10% Jewish populations, it might not make much business sense for Hobby Lobby to stock Jewish kitsch in its stores, tho it probably makes sense for them to handle special orders or offer them on their website.

[Badger]

Did EVERYONE miss the quote from CORPORATE office spokesperson advising the reasons for not selling Jewish items was that "[the owner] is Christian and those are his values"? Does anyone REALLY need a map drawn between that statement of the OWNER'S values, the statement from the local employee, and the owner's firm intrusion of fundamentalist views into his company's governance?!?? It's clearly ideology that's blinding people as to the reality of the situation, not creating the problem.

I swear, even hearing the owner on tape calling the local store manager saying 'don't sell kik% stuff would just result in the same sort of knee-jerk apologism.

Whatever. It's sad. Just sad where supporting this kind of narrow-mindedness is considered de rigure in the fight for 'liberty' or against 'political correctness' or some s^it....

[Link]

Did EVERYONE miss the quote from CORPORATE office spokesperson advising the reasons for not selling Jewish items was that "[the owner] is Christian and those are his values"?

Was that corporate or someone at a local store?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/10/04/hobby-lobby-jewish-bias-or-business-decision/2921069/

It could just be the company has some $h-tty workers and piss poor corporate culture.  Still not a good thing.

But I am still disgusted by the people who say it is okay for large corporations to ban the sale of holiday items for other religions.  Once your business grows to a certain size and operates in certain neighborhoods it's time to get your head out of your @$$.

[DC Al Fine]

Did EVERYONE miss the quote from CORPORATE office spokesperson advising the reasons for not selling Jewish items was that "[the owner] is Christian and those are his values"? Does anyone REALLY need a map drawn between that statement of the OWNER'S values, the statement from the local employee, and the owner's firm intrusion of fundamentalist views into his company's governance?!?? It's clearly ideology that's blinding people as to the reality of the situation, not creating the problem.

I swear, even hearing the owner on tape calling the local store manager saying 'don't sell kik% stuff would just result in the same sort of knee-jerk apologism.

Whatever. It's sad. Just sad where supporting this kind of narrow-mindedness is considered de rigure in the fight for 'liberty' or against 'political correctness' or some s^it....

Well actually TJ provided a calm, thought out response about the corporate quote. But you know, keep on knocking over straw men and arguing in caps if that floats your boat.

Again, I'll repeat TJ's question:

How is the owner a narrow-minded bigot or anti-semite for not selling Jewish goods? Is one not allowed to have theological views at all without being a bigot these days?