Republicans breach national security?

[opebo]

What do you fellows think?

I can just mention that here in Asia everyone - most particularly our Chinese opponent and our putative allies like Japan, S. Korea, various Southeast Asian governments - sees the US as incredibly weak in the region. 

Many of these countries are very easily swayed by the 'surface of things', and the USA keeps  loosing face due to the shutdown despite Obama's masterful foreign policy.  There's been a huge amount of publicity in Asia about the cancellation of the President's trip here.

By contrast China continues in absolute competence.. the rest of Asia mostly hates and fears China, but they are going to have to be realistic as the USA is too weak to contest the new hegemon.

[opebo]

I can't even find Kerry in the photo of the Apec summit Obama had to miss because of the Republicans shaming the US:



They say he's in there, I just can't find him.. somewhere hidden in the back.

[opebo]

Our valiant Secretary of State tries his best in the face of quislings and traitors undermining America:

[Middle-aged Europe]

Neither option is entirely true. The closest one is option 1, although I would certainly deny that the damage is "permanent" at this point.

[opebo]

Neither option is entirely true. The closest one is option 1, although I would certainly deny that the damage is "permanent" at this point.

Not in Europe of course.  Asians are different.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

They certainly made themselves look terrible.

[The Free North]

Not sure if the OP is trolling, but he's way off the mark.


Our foreign policy has been hurt by centuries of policing the globe, and thinking we can bomb whoever we want, install bases wherever we want, and overthrow leaders wherever we want. Republicans and democrats have both been responsible for this.


If you really think our situation is asia is compromised by because Obama cant visit the continent, you're missing a few brain cells.

[opebo]

Not sure if the OP is trolling, but he's way off the mark.


Our foreign policy has been hurt by centuries of policing the globe, and thinking we can bomb whoever we want, install bases wherever we want, and overthrow leaders wherever we want. Republicans and democrats have both been responsible for this.


If you really think our situation is asia is compromised by because Obama cant visit the continent, you're missing a few brain cells.

Its how Asians feel, CT.  They see that America is unable to do even the most basic things.

[DrScholl]

The GOP could slip classified information to North Korea conservatives and "libertarians" would still spin it. Hey, maybe that's an idea, perhaps Breitbart can steal classified information and threaten to sell it to terrorists if Obamacare isn't repealed. Genius.

[Beet]

Lol opebo. This post isn't really particularly silly coming from you, but the difference is that I've seen these kinds of comments repeated from respectable sources.

First of all, China our trade partner, a competitor in some respects, in some respects we have disagreements with, but not our "opponent". The U.S. and China cooperate in far more areas than we disagree.

Second of all, no one is going to remember a silly trip in a couple of years.

The U.S. has little to worry about in Southeast Asia. I don't think the Chinese have been particularly competent-- if anything, probably the most incompetent of the major powers. China is the third or fourth largest nation in the world by land mass, yet it seems hell bent on alienating its neighbors over miniscule islands or barren pieces of land. The Chinese government is more like a lumbering, obese 10-year old bully on the block. It keeps swinging randomly and is hitting all the other kids without anything to show for it. Meanwhile teacher (the U.S.) is watching warily and ready to step in. If China keeps trying to attack the Spratlys, it won't matter how many trips Xi Jinping makes or how many Obama misses. ASEAN will be driven into U.S. arms by the logic of IR theory.

[opebo]

ASEAN will be driven into U.S. arms by the logic of IR theory.

Nope, that's wishful thinking Beet.  I would love to believe that as well, but I can tell you having lived here for nearly a decade - its not that easy.

With Asians tone and impressions are everything.  Underlying that, China is strong and growing stronger while the US becomes weaker.  Sure, a European might see that as a reason to accept US leadership (less of a threat to sovereignty, more potential for 'better deals' from a weakening superpower), but Asians respect strength, resolve, and think in the LONG term.  In the long term China's it, and we need to do everything just perfectly and deftly to put that off as long as possible.

[Torie]

Calm down opebo is my best advice.

[opebo]

Calm down opebo is my best advice.

Oh I'm living the good life over here as you well know.  But I try to pass along the benefit of my local observations for you back in the Bad Place.

[The Free North]

Not sure if the OP is trolling, but he's way off the mark.


Our foreign policy has been hurt by centuries of policing the globe, and thinking we can bomb whoever we want, install bases wherever we want, and overthrow leaders wherever we want. Republicans and democrats have both been responsible for this.


If you really think our situation is asia is compromised by because Obama cant visit the continent, you're missing a few brain cells.

Its how Asians feel, CT.  They see that America is unable to do even the most basic things.

Youre not very good at trolling

[memphis]

Although my knowledge of Asian cultures is quite limited, I do suspect many Asians would find such public displays of disrespect a sign of a weak leader. The Chinese are much better at putting on their harmonious face, even if it comes with restrictions on speech and such. Just a different way of viewing the world.

[Vosem]

Есть ещё время сохранить лицо. Потом придётся сохранять другие части тела.

[badgate]

I can't even find Kerry in the photo of the Apec summit Obama had to miss because of the Republicans shaming the US:



They say he's in there, I just can't find him.. somewhere hidden in the back.

This photo has been cropped. Hilarious.

[AkSaber]

If there is an effect, it won't compare to the damage done by the incessant intervention in the Mid East.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Opebo's not necessarily wrong. Asian sentiment for a lot of things is dependent on the impression given by a power -- if the impression is seen as weak or disrespectful, the typical Asian response is that this will be an easy target to conquer, or rather, a testament to the inferiority of the whole notion of Western non-centralization.

I have a friend from Hong Kong who's currently my roommate and I remember when I was speaking with him about Asian cultures and ideas, and he told me very bluntly that its the government's responsibility to take care of things no matter what the costs, and he didn't understand why Americans don't fund public programs the way some Asian countries do. It took some time explaining the rationale that Americans distrust government a lot of the time, and that the government reflects what its citizens often believe. I got the impression from him that he felt that idea just gave off that America had a glaring weakness.

[Beet]

Oh for the love of The Donkey. I'm no Asia expert but I'll bite.

First of all, one person from Hong Kong doesn't represent an entire continent of three billion people. Secondly, all you've said is that he doesn't understand why Americans don't fund public programs and distrust the government. But that's not a uniquely Asian thing. There are some European posters on this very forum who don't understand why America won't fund public programs. Heck, there are some Americans who don't understand it. Thirdly, Americans aren't the only ones who distrust the government. People from Asia can be just as cynical about the government as people from any other continent. Governments are the same all over the world. They're corrupt, they're inefficient, and they're deeply political, and the people living under them certainly can see that. Fourth, Asians aren't the only ones whose sentiment is heavily dependent on appearances and impressions. Westerners' sentiments are no less dependent on surface appearances. No one understood what Alan Greenspan did, yet everyone worshiped him as "the Maestro". Why? Because he seemed smart on the surface. The entire Obama '08 campaign was zero substance, all a thin layer of corporate slogans. Yet Americans fell in love with him. Asians aren't that different from people anywhere else. In the realm of "face", I believe the concept of face has more to do with the explicit acknowledgement of something that is equally valued in all cultures, than an inability or unwillingness to see beneath the surface any more than anyone else. In this sense, the Asian cultures that value this are actually more self-aware than we are in the West.

[LastVoter]

Есть ещё время сохранить лицо. Потом придётся сохранять другие части тела.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3cCopXDNs4

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Oh for the love of The Donkey. I'm no Asia expert but I'll bite.

First of all, one person from Hong Kong doesn't represent an entire continent of three billion people. Secondly, all you've said is that he doesn't understand why Americans don't fund public programs and distrust the government. But that's not a uniquely Asian thing. There are some European posters on this very forum who don't understand why America won't fund public programs. Heck, there are some Americans who don't understand it. Thirdly, Americans aren't the only ones who distrust the government. People from Asia can be just as cynical about the government as people from any other continent. Governments are the same all over the world. They're corrupt, they're inefficient, and they're deeply political, and the people living under them certainly can see that. Fourth, Asians aren't the only ones whose sentiment is heavily dependent on appearances and impressions. Westerners' sentiments are no less dependent on surface appearances. No one understood what Alan Greenspan did, yet everyone worshiped him as "the Maestro". Why? Because he seemed smart on the surface. The entire Obama '08 campaign was zero substance, all a thin layer of corporate slogans. Yet Americans fell in love with him. Asians aren't that different from people anywhere else. In the realm of "face", I believe the concept of face has more to do with the explicit acknowledgement of something that is equally valued in all cultures, than an inability or unwillingness to see beneath the surface any more than anyone else. In this sense, the Asian cultures that value this are actually more self-aware than we are in the West.

The overarching point that I was trying to make is that we are dealing with a region that has a rather different value system on perception and in this case, Asians are more inclined to see overwhelming individuality as a weakness in their value system. Note that in Asian nations, there are cultural systems that starkly affect the relationships people, particularly outsiders, can have via perceptions. For example, when China opened up to economic development late last century, many foreign business leaders had to learn about Guanxi, or the value placed on relationships due to a combination of social status, power, etc. For the businesses to break through, they had to build some extensive social capital with the Chinese. Granted, this isn't necessarily something that is mutually exclusive to Asian cultures but it is important to make the distinction that different cultures place different emphasis on how people are seen in terms of relationships (the relationship building through social capital in Western Europe obviously being far different that the social capital in East Asia.)

If the US is showing weakness due to an internal structure system in comparison to the states of the region (particularly China), it is conceivable that Asian cultures might see it as weaker in comparison overall. I'm not necessarily saying Opebo is right, the chances that this will damage our standing in the long term is minimal, but US foreign policy regarding East and SE Asia must place heavy emphasis on face/social capital in order to continue to build strong relationships with states of the region.

[Beet]

The overarching point that I was trying to make is that we are dealing with a region that has a rather different value system on perception and in this case, Asians are more inclined to see overwhelming individuality as a weakness in their value system.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

As there are everywhere.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes, in the U.S., the value placed on relationships is called "networking." Networking = Guanxi. Sure, it is more blatant and explicit in Asia, but it works the same everywhere. The foreign business leaders did not have to learn about the concepts of relationships, social status, and power, they just had to learn a new word for it and the specific ways in which it was used that may have been functionally different but were essentially the same.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The differences are generally exaggerated and misunderstood, though. Businesses need to build up social capital anywhere they go. American business operating in Northern Virginia have to build up social capital in Northern Virginia. Yes, there are differences in precisely how it is done (and that is where it gets interesting), but you can't just throw around buzzwords like "social capital" ,"face" and "guanxi" and think that you've made a distinction.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You sound like you're writing a college paper for East Asian studies 101.

No sh**t they see us as weaker. We see ourselves as weaker. Everyone sees us as weaker.

No one looks at the paralysis of our government, a house divided against itself and sees strength.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

The overarching point that I was trying to make is that we are dealing with a region that has a rather different value system on perception and in this case, Asians are more inclined to see overwhelming individuality as a weakness in their value system.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

As there are everywhere.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes, in the U.S., the value placed on relationships is called "networking." Networking = Guanxi. Sure, it is more blatant and explicit in Asia, but it works the same everywhere. The foreign business leaders did not have to learn about the concepts of relationships, social status, and power, they just had to learn a new word for it and the specific ways in which it was used that may have been functionally different but were essentially the same.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The differences are generally exaggerated and misunderstood, though. Businesses need to build up social capital anywhere they go. American business operating in Northern Virginia have to build up social capital in Northern Virginia. Yes, there are differences in precisely how it is done (and that is where it gets interesting), but you can't just throw around buzzwords like "social capital" ,"face" and "guanxi" and think that you've made a distinction.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You sound like you're writing a college paper for East Asian studies 101.

You agree then that there are differences in how face is perceived and how things are done? If that's true then there is a distinction. Just because something works out similarly in another place doesn't mean that they're necessarily the same thing. The cultural value matters, and it matters heavily. If networking in Europe is functionally different than networking in East Asia, that means you have to think differently about it. I'm not one to subscribe inherently then that IR theory is the same for China and East Asia as it has been for the old European states. IR theory is making the assumption that the EA nations will act the way Europeans states have in the past in regards to China's strong-arming.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So if the teacher is seen as weak and the bully keeps making a ruckus and keeps managing to get away with it, who are the kids going to respect more? The bully who seems to be able to reign constant chaos on the class, or the teacher who can't seem to do anything about it?

[barfbag]

It's sad that this is only going to lead to partisanship. Neither side is actually asking for much either. Raise the debt ceiling and allow for individuals like us to have the same healthcare rights as politicians by not forcing us to buy it.