Senate Bill: Let's Really Eliminate Farm Subsidies Act (Final Vote)

[TNF]

Subsidies can be targeted at small farms looking to expand their business and invest in their communities.  Rural businesses and communities have taken a significant hit from the Great Recession, and the vast urbanization of the country certainly hasn't helped.  If we're going to eliminate these subsidies entirely, the Senate should pass a bill that will boost the economies of rural areas and aid farmers in doing so.

Or just pass another stimulus bill. The economy is still not in the best shape, why should we only pump up rural areas? Give everyone another round of stimulus and we'd be a lot better off.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

Subsidies can be targeted at small farms looking to expand their business and invest in their communities.  Rural businesses and communities have taken a significant hit from the Great Recession, and the vast urbanization of the country certainly hasn't helped.  If we're going to eliminate these subsidies entirely, the Senate should pass a bill that will boost the economies of rural areas and aid farmers in doing so.

Or just pass another stimulus bill. The economy is still not in the best shape, why should we only pump up rural areas? Give everyone another round of stimulus and we'd be a lot better off.

Because rural areas struggle more?

[Gass3268]

As some who has relatives who own a farm and struggle to get by, the help they get is really important.

[tmthforu94]

Growing up in rural areas my entire life, I also understand the importance of farm subsidies, and would be extremely disappointed if we abolished such an important resource to our the breadmakers of Atlasia.

[TNF]

What I don't get here is why we should subsidize agriculture. If we're going to be throwing money at it, what justification is there for PRIVATE agribusinesses to exist at all? Individual, small farms are romantic and get everyone's panties nice and damp but they're horrendously inefficient. There's a reason why massive agribusiness conglomerates like Monsanto et al. do well, and it has less to do with government cash flow than it does the superiority of large scale farming over small scale farming.

If we are going to be throwing money at it, we might as well own it and operate it. Nationalize the whole damn agribusiness sector, I say, and get it over with.

[Sbane]

Why is everyone so willing to help out farmers but then get all pissed off when a single mother who works 40 hours a week at $8/hour gets food stamps?

[TNF]

Why is everyone so willing to help out farmers but then get all pissed off when a single mother who works 40 hours a week at $8/hour gets food stamps?

ya got me comrade

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

Several months ago, the NE government passed a law that grants subsidies to farms if they meet two requirements: one, they have to be small, and two, the farmers have to develop a business plan or design a more efficient farming system in order to qualify for the grants.  If we're not going to pass a farm subsidy program similar to that, then we should find other ways to help small farms and their communities, rather than sweep their problems under the rug.

Atlasia has already taken a hit in its manufacturing sector over the past decade.  Let's not let the same thing happen to its agriculture sector.

Why is everyone so willing to help out farmers but then get all pissed off when a single mother who works 40 hours a week at $8/hour gets food stamps?

...I don't see anyone here who feels that way.

[Sbane]

Several months ago, the NE government passed a law that grants subsidies to farms if they meet two requirements: one, they have to be small, and two, the farmers have to develop a business plan or design a more efficient farming system in order to qualify for the grants.  If we're not going to pass a farm subsidy program similar to that, then we should find other ways to help small farms and their communities, rather than sweep their problems under the rug.

Atlasia has already taken a hit in its manufacturing sector over the past decade.  Let's not let the same thing happen to its agriculture sector.

Why is everyone so willing to help out farmers but then get all pissed off when a single mother who works 40 hours a week at $8/hour gets food stamps?

...I don't see anyone here who feels that way.

Well, Atlasia certainly isn't representative of anything.

Anyways, I agree with TNF. Agriculture lends itself to large agribusinesses. One of the reasons why American agriculture is so efficient as compared to developing countries is due to the large farms that abound here. And if the world followed that model, the world could be fed even with a much larger population. Of course that won't happen due to political reasons, similar to the irrational love of small farmers that we have in America as well. Anyways, I do not want to subsidize inefficient agriculture or large agribusinesses.

[TNF]

Several months ago, the NE government passed a law that grants subsidies to farms if they meet two requirements: one, they have to be small, and two, the farmers have to develop a business plan or design a more efficient farming system in order to qualify for the grants.  If we're not going to pass a farm subsidy program similar to that, then we should find other ways to help small farms and their communities, rather than sweep their problems under the rug.

Atlasia has already taken a hit in its manufacturing sector over the past decade.  Let's not let the same thing happen to its agriculture sector.

Why is everyone so willing to help out farmers but then get all pissed off when a single mother who works 40 hours a week at $8/hour gets food stamps?

...I don't see anyone here who feels that way.

This is a ridiculous argument. Give me one good reason as to why we should pay farmers to continue an economically inefficient activity other than the nostalgic appeal of the small farm. Farm subsidies are the equivalent of paying companies to hand-craft chairs or furniture rather than produce them en masse in a factory. They are backward and reactionary at this point in time and serve no clear economic purpose.

Will ending them hurt some people and force them to sell their farms? Absolutely. But if this Senate does anything, it should make it so that those people are eligible for trade adjustment assistance or unemployment insurance (and I will probably offer an amendment to that end later in the day) rather than stupidly continue to pay for weaker, inefficient forms of agriculture. The end result will be stronger farms with the ability to produce food more cheaply for everyone. I would advocate then taking those farms over by bringing them into public ownership; I realize the Senate likely won't do that, so I'm at this point not even going to bother with a doomed amendment.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

Several months ago, the NE government passed a law that grants subsidies to farms if they meet two requirements: one, they have to be small, and two, the farmers have to develop a business plan or design a more efficient farming system in order to qualify for the grants.  If we're not going to pass a farm subsidy program similar to that, then we should find other ways to help small farms and their communities, rather than sweep their problems under the rug.

Atlasia has already taken a hit in its manufacturing sector over the past decade.  Let's not let the same thing happen to its agriculture sector.

Why is everyone so willing to help out farmers but then get all pissed off when a single mother who works 40 hours a week at $8/hour gets food stamps?

...I don't see anyone here who feels that way.

This is a ridiculous argument. Give me one good reason as to why we should pay farmers to continue an economically inefficient activity other than the nostalgic appeal of the small farm. Farm subsidies are the equivalent of paying companies to hand-craft chairs or furniture rather than produce them en masse in a factory. They are backward and reactionary at this point in time and serve no clear economic purpose.

Because small farmers need to eat, too.  I'm surprised you're taking such a hostile attitude toward the Atlasian farmer.  But hey, I guess that's part of the whole faux-populist gimmick you've been dragging for a while.

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Except small farms don't have to be inefficient.  The farmers can use these grants to expand facilities, or expand diversification into new production area sites.

I should have mentioned that the NE bill requires applicants to match or exceed the amount of the grant being requested, and they must be used for projects that are defined as capital fixed assets and have a life expectancy of ten years or more.  So not only do farmers get to expand their businesses and make them of more worth to their communities, but the money is paid back to the government over time.

Your "let 'em fail" attitude is fitting for someone with such an elitist personality, but in this case it's very unexpected.

[Maxwell]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

So, what is your plan to revitalize rural communities?  Or should we let them fall victim to the vast urbanization going on in this country?

[Maxwell]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

So, what is your plan to revitalize rural communities?  Or should we let them fall victim to the vast urbanization going on in this country?

Maybe it's my whole outlook as a free marketer and live and let live, but if these small farms can't survive without the government dole, then they shouldn't be subsidized so that they can "survive" artificially. The Agriculture business will be better off.

That being said, the next amendment is probably going to be ways to time this so that this gives farmers ample time to find ways to make their small farm profitable or to find more opportunity elsewhere.

[Sbane]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

So, what is your plan to revitalize rural communities?  Or should we let them fall victim to the vast urbanization going on in this country?

What exactly is wrong with urbanization? It is merely due to how our economy operates. Why should we fight that?

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

So, what is your plan to revitalize rural communities?  Or should we let them fall victim to the vast urbanization going on in this country?

What exactly is wrong with urbanization? It is merely due to how our economy operates. Why should we fight that?

Because believe it or not, not everyone wants to live in a city.  I believe rural communities are still vital to Atlasian culture.  Instead of telling people to simply 'live with it,' we ought to find ways for people to continue living a rural lifestyle if they so choose.

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

[Sbane]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

So, what is your plan to revitalize rural communities?  Or should we let them fall victim to the vast urbanization going on in this country?

What exactly is wrong with urbanization? It is merely due to how our economy operates. Why should we fight that?

Because believe it or not, not everyone wants to live in a city.  I believe rural communities are still vital to Atlasian culture.  Instead of telling people to simply 'live with it,' we ought to find ways for people to continue living a rural lifestyle if they so choose.

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

I think we should help people, but we should not subsidize lifestyles. Helping people would include getting people more educated and better trained for today's workplace. But that would likely mean they would move to a more urban area for a job. And by urban area I don't necessarily mean a big city. It could be a small or medium sized city too. But it likely won't be a farm where your neighbor lives miles away from you.

[Maxwell]

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

Can we please stop with the faux outrage and have an actual argument on this?

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

So, what is your plan to revitalize rural communities?  Or should we let them fall victim to the vast urbanization going on in this country?

What exactly is wrong with urbanization? It is merely due to how our economy operates. Why should we fight that?

Because believe it or not, not everyone wants to live in a city.  I believe rural communities are still vital to Atlasian culture.  Instead of telling people to simply 'live with it,' we ought to find ways for people to continue living a rural lifestyle if they so choose.

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

I think we should help people, but we should not subsidize lifestyles. Helping people would include getting people more educated and better trained for today's workplace. But that would likely mean they would move to a more urban area for a job. And by urban area I don't necessarily mean a big city. It could be a small or medium sized city too. But it likely won't be a farm where your neighbor lives miles away from you.

But do you disagree that people should be able to live, at home, in an environment of their preference, be that a large city, medium city, or small town?

Call me an idealist, but I don't think the solution has to be all-or-nothing.

[TNF]

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

Can we please stop with the faux outrage and have an actual argument on this?

You're expecting far too much from Scott if you're expecting him to put up an actual argument.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

Can we please stop with the faux outrage and have an actual argument on this?

You're expecting far too much from Scott if you're expecting him to put up an actual argument.

I'm just gonna put you on ignore before I start saying things I'll regret.  Problem solved.

[TNF]

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

Can we please stop with the faux outrage and have an actual argument on this?

You're expecting far too much from Scott if you're expecting him to put up an actual argument.

I'm just gonna put you on ignore before I start saying things I'll regret.  Problem solved.

>implying you've ever said anything of note up to this point anyway

[tmthforu94]

We still don't have a GM, correct? A cost analysis on this if it were just reserved to small farmers would be extremely beneficial.

In my hometown, if we eliminated farm subsidies to small farmers, my town would completely collapse, as would thousands of other farming communities throughout Atlasia.

[Sbane]

If they weren't on the small family farm, they would be doing something else. We don't need to protect this dated image that we have and we should instead be focusing our resources where they are needed. I am in 100% agreement with TNF on this matter.

So, what is your plan to revitalize rural communities?  Or should we let them fall victim to the vast urbanization going on in this country?

What exactly is wrong with urbanization? It is merely due to how our economy operates. Why should we fight that?

Because believe it or not, not everyone wants to live in a city.  I believe rural communities are still vital to Atlasian culture.  Instead of telling people to simply 'live with it,' we ought to find ways for people to continue living a rural lifestyle if they so choose.

Tmth, having worked on a farm before, can attest to the importance of keeping small communities economically viable.  But if the majority of our senators view those communities as weak and inefficient... not good enough to have a spot in your elite paradise... well, I think that's plain sad.  That's not the progressivism I've come to know.

I think we should help people, but we should not subsidize lifestyles. Helping people would include getting people more educated and better trained for today's workplace. But that would likely mean they would move to a more urban area for a job. And by urban area I don't necessarily mean a big city. It could be a small or medium sized city too. But it likely won't be a farm where your neighbor lives miles away from you.

But do you disagree that people should be able to live, at home, in an environment of their preference, be that a large city, medium city, or small town?

Call me an idealist, but I don't think the solution has to be all-or-nothing.

I think people should be able to live wherever they want to. That being said, I don't think society has any obligation to create jobs for them wherever they want. Also, there are jobs with big agribusiness, so it's not as if there are no jobs there. I understand they are not desirable jobs, but I don't see why the country needs to subsidize inefficient agriculture.

[Sbane]

We still don't have a GM, correct? A cost analysis on this if it were just reserved to small farmers would be extremely beneficial.

In my hometown, if we eliminated farm subsidies to small farmers, my town would completely collapse, as would thousands of other farming communities throughout Atlasia.

I wonder though, why do these communities support Republicans. And correct me if I am wrong, but it's not just because of social issues. They support Republican economic policies until it affects them. The poor people in urban and suburban areas be damned.