Total Depravity and Deuteronomy 30:11-14

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Total depravity is the belief that because of original sin, mankind is unable to by himself follow the word of God and thus be good and thus needs the redemptive power of Christ's sacrifice at Calvary.  Most often associated with Calvinism, it is found in a wide range of Protestant denominations, mainly conservative ones.

However, reading over Deuteronomy 30:11-14 just now, it seems to me those verses at the very least weaken the traditional total depravity doctrine.

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I suppose one could argue that verse 14 represents Christ in accordance with John 1, but even then since God expected man to be able to access that word well before the crucifixion, it suggests that belief in Christ's crucifixion and resurrection is not necessary to receive God's word and act upon it.

I know we have some Calvinists here, and I look forward to you defending the total depravity of man and stating why you believe these verses don't have the implications they seem to have at first glance.

[DC Al Fine]

The way Reformed theologians usually interpret those verses as applying strictly to Mosaic Law. Man is still capable of doing good deeds, but we are not able to love God with all our heart, soul strength and mind. Ergo, anyone can abstain from pork or blended fabrics but they cannot love God unless he opens our hearts.

You said Calvinists plural. I thought I was the only one

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The way Reformed theologians usually interpret those verses as applying strictly to Mosaic Law. Man is still capable of doing good deeds, but we are not able to love God with all our heart, soul strength and mind. Ergo, anyone can abstain from pork or blended fabrics but they cannot love God unless he opens our hearts.

The problem with that thesis is that it presumes that God purposely gave the Jews a law he knew to be insufficient. (Indeed, that is a major part of my difficulty with Christian particularism, in that it condemns those who never had the chance to learn of Christ to the status of the unsaved.) It also presumes that God is difficult to love.

[DC Al Fine]

The way Reformed theologians usually interpret those verses as applying strictly to Mosaic Law. Man is still capable of doing good deeds, but we are not able to love God with all our heart, soul strength and mind. Ergo, anyone can abstain from pork or blended fabrics but they cannot love God unless he opens our hearts.

The problem with that thesis is that it presumes that God purposely gave the Jews a law he knew to be insufficient. (Indeed, that is a major part of my difficulty with Christian particularism, in that it condemns those who never had the chance to learn of Christ to the status of the unsaved.) It also presumes that God is difficult to love.

Short answer:

1) Could you elaborate about "insufficient law"?

2) Condemning those who never learned about Christ is tough, but I think it's really only an issue for non-Calvinist Protestants (at least the logic of it). Catholics have their views on righteous pagans and such (which I really don't know about), and Calvinists have our own, admittedly tough solution.

3) I'd dispute that God is difficult to love, at least in the sense that you seem to mean it. Picture a lovely middle aged mother who has several unruly teenage sons. The sons don't love the mother, but that doesn't mean the mother is difficult to love. The sons are just jerks.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

1) Could you elaborate about "insufficient law"?

In the Torah, following the Mosaic law is presented as being sufficient to make a Israelite righteous and worthy of the favor and grace of YHWH Elohim.  Yet if God's grace is only available to man via a belief in the Christ as our savior, it means the Mosaic law is insufficient and that God allowed the Israelites to believe for over a millennium that which is not true. I resolve this for myself by emphasizing not the person of Jesus, but the ministry of Jesus in a way that makes the way to God's grace exemplified by the ministry of the Christ Jesus accessible to those who never heard of it. I do not dent that that ministry and that which has followed from it had made the path more clearly marked for billions, which is why I call myself Christian, but I do not believe it was the person of Jesus that was necessary for salvation to occur, which is why I call myself a Universalist.

[opebo]

I was attracted here by 'Total Depravity'.