German Elections & Politics

[Klartext89]

AfD logic at work: 70% support my policies, but are voting for evil left-wing anti-Germans. Makes sense.

Take it this way: 70% may hold a wide range of more or less critical opinions regarding 2015's immigration politics (I am one of them). But that doesn't mean that they support the AfD (I mean most of them don't even vote AfD...). And that's a good thing and the German progressives should be glad instead of telling people: "Then f**ing vote AfD already. We don't even want to be voted by people like you. You're enabling the far-right. You're as bad as them."

There's a very easy answer: They support AfD, they simply don't know yet. The wide majority of Germans is heavily manipulated by the left-wing media (we don't even have a center-right media like Fox News here) and for lots of people it's only possible to inform themself through the lying press and the governments TV channels they have to pay for. Germany is a left-wind opinion dictatorship These days with a 60% non-left electorate which believes the CDU/CSU would be "non-left" because they always talk anti-Left in Talk Shows and election campaign. They are like John McCain: campaign like a Conservative, govern like a Liberal.

The facts are absoluetly clear, you simply either don't like them or you haven't figured out what is going on ;-)

[Intell]

AfD logic at work: 70% support my policies, but are voting for evil left-wing anti-Germans. Makes sense.

Take it this way: 70% may hold a wide range of more or less critical opinions regarding 2015's immigration politics (I am one of them). But that doesn't mean that they support the AfD (I mean most of them don't even vote AfD...). And that's a good thing and the German progressives should be glad instead of telling people: "Then f**ing vote AfD already. We don't even want to be voted by people like you. You're enabling the far-right. You're as bad as them."

There's a very easy answer: They support AfD, they simply don't know yet. The wide majority of Germans is heavily manipulated by the left-wing media (we don't even have a center-right media like Fox News here) and for lots of people it's only possible to inform themself through the lying press and the governments TV channels they have to pay for. Germany is a left-wind opinion dictatorship These days with a 60% non-left electorate which believes the CDU/CSU would be "non-left" because they always talk anti-Left in Talk Shows and election campaign. They are like John McCain: campaign like a Conservative, govern like a Liberal.

The facts are absoluetly clear, you simply either don't like them or you haven't figured out what is going on ;-)

Your stupidity astounds me.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I mean, I hate to use the horseshoe narrative but it's remarkable how easily that could be turned into a "the proletariat just need to wake up!" True Left screed by just changing a few words.

[Klartext89]

AfD logic at work: 70% support my policies, but are voting for evil left-wing anti-Germans. Makes sense.

Take it this way: 70% may hold a wide range of more or less critical opinions regarding 2015's immigration politics (I am one of them). But that doesn't mean that they support the AfD (I mean most of them don't even vote AfD...). And that's a good thing and the German progressives should be glad instead of telling people: "Then f**ing vote AfD already. We don't even want to be voted by people like you. You're enabling the far-right. You're as bad as them."

There's a very easy answer: They support AfD, they simply don't know yet. The wide majority of Germans is heavily manipulated by the left-wing media (we don't even have a center-right media like Fox News here) and for lots of people it's only possible to inform themself through the lying press and the governments TV channels they have to pay for. Germany is a left-wind opinion dictatorship These days with a 60% non-left electorate which believes the CDU/CSU would be "non-left" because they always talk anti-Left in Talk Shows and election campaign. They are like John McCain: campaign like a Conservative, govern like a Liberal.

The facts are absoluetly clear, you simply either don't like them or you haven't figured out what is going on ;-)

Your stupidity astounds me.

For Socialists, reality always sounds like stupidity. No real surprise ;-)
But nice to see that the truth hurts you so much :-D

Just saw your "arguments" in the Kasich/Clinton-Thread, well, I guess I walked into a real powerhouse of debating... (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=256742.msg5485180#new)

[Tender Branson]

Too bad that the AfD decided to keep Höcke today.

This guy is a nut and deserved to be kicked out for his recent comments.

[ApatheticAustrian]

höcke is supported and tolerated by the likes of "liberal" and "friendly" AfDler like Meuthen....just to annoy Petry.

[Bumaye]

Too bad that the AfD decided to keep Höcke today.

This guy is a nut and deserved to be kicked out for his recent comments.

 
 
No, god, no! Höcke is the best thing that could have happen. No sane person doubts that this man is a fascist, he makes it much easier to prove that the same goes for his party.

[Klartext89]

Too bad that the AfD decided to keep Höcke today.

This guy is a nut and deserved to be kicked out for his recent comments.

Always funny if AfD-Haters want to give advise. Totally irrelevant what the enemies want, always do what you believe in. Great move, close the party instead of openly attack each other. ^^

[Klartext89]

Too bad that the AfD decided to keep Höcke today.

This guy is a nut and deserved to be kicked out for his recent comments.

 
 
No, god, no! Höcke is the best thing that could have happen. No sane person doubts that this man is a fascist, he makes it much easier to prove that the same goes for his party.

Fascists punch people with different opinions in the face, e.g, happened multiple times in Washington last weekend. The true fascists are the self-annonced "anti-fascists". Höcke is a true German patriot who says what a hell lot of people in Germany are thinking. And (I know you're not interested in the truth, but maybe someone else) he only said what even the Jewish founder of this crazy stone monument in Berlin said about it. No big deal, I doubt that outside the far-left bubble anyone hardly cared.

[ApatheticAustrian]

Too bad that the AfD decided to keep Höcke today.

This guy is a nut and deserved to be kicked out for his recent comments.

Always funny if AfD-Haters want to give advise. Totally irrelevant what the enemies want, always do what you believe in. Great move, close the party instead of openly attack each other. ^^

it has been an open attack from the meuthen wing on the petry wing.

höcke himself doesn't care about such meaningless debates.

[ApatheticAustrian]

No big deal, I doubt that outside the far-left bubble anyone hardly cared.

you know quite well, that the monument stuff was just the peak of the iceberg which was his big speech, full of oldschool nationalist rhetoric and hardcore enough even most AFD party leaders felt like apologizing.

höcke dominated the headlines the next few days - it was a big effing deal, especially in germany.

[palandio]

This guy is a nut and deserved to be kicked out for his recent comments.

What's the sense of kicking a nut out from a packet of nuts?

Both the Petry wing and the Meuthen/Gauland wing have an entirely tactical approach regarding perceived extremism. See the case of the AfD Landtag member Wolfgang Gedeon from Baden-Württemberg, who is a Holocaust denying conspiracy theorist. In his case Meuthen wanted to kick him out (after some initial hesistance) and the Petry wing defended him. Now it's the other way round because Höcke is on Meuthen's and Gauland's side.

[Intell]

AfD logic at work: 70% support my policies, but are voting for evil left-wing anti-Germans. Makes sense.

Take it this way: 70% may hold a wide range of more or less critical opinions regarding 2015's immigration politics (I am one of them). But that doesn't mean that they support the AfD (I mean most of them don't even vote AfD...). And that's a good thing and the German progressives should be glad instead of telling people: "Then f**ing vote AfD already. We don't even want to be voted by people like you. You're enabling the far-right. You're as bad as them."

There's a very easy answer: They support AfD, they simply don't know yet. The wide majority of Germans is heavily manipulated by the left-wing media (we don't even have a center-right media like Fox News here) and for lots of people it's only possible to inform themself through the lying press and the governments TV channels they have to pay for. Germany is a left-wind opinion dictatorship These days with a 60% non-left electorate which believes the CDU/CSU would be "non-left" because they always talk anti-Left in Talk Shows and election campaign. They are like John McCain: campaign like a Conservative, govern like a Liberal.

The facts are absoluetly clear, you simply either don't like them or you haven't figured out what is going on ;-)

Your stupidity astounds me.

For Socialists, reality always sounds like stupidity. No real surprise ;-)
But nice to see that the truth hurts you so much :-D

Just saw your "arguments" in the Kasich/Clinton-Thread, well, I guess I walked into a real powerhouse of debating... (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=256742.msg5485180#new)

Stupidity deserves no response.

[DavidB.]

Höcke is a true German patriot who says what a hell lot of people in Germany are thinking.

You know who did that too?

I totally understand why one would support the AfD and would perhaps vote for them myself, but f**k you for defending that POS.

[Klartext89]

Höcke is a true German patriot who says what a hell lot of people in Germany are thinking.

You know who did that too?

I totally understand why one would support the AfD and would perhaps vote for them myself, but f**k you for defending that POS.

You can support Israel even without bowing down to anti-German sentiments which have oppressed my country for too long.

[Klartext89]

it has been an open attack from the meuthen wing on the petry wing.

höcke himself doesn't care about such meaningless debates.

Yeah, that's unfortunateley true and I don't like that discord.

you know quite well, that the monument stuff was just the peak of the iceberg which was his big speech, full of oldschool nationalist rhetoric and hardcore enough even most AFD party leaders felt like apologizing.

höcke dominated the headlines the next few days - it was a big effing deal, especially in germany.

I'm pretty sure that way more than the 15% of Germans intending to vote AfD right now are supporting nearly everything what Höcke said. The ones totally disagreeing aren't voting AfD with Höcke, they won't without. You shouldn't look for them, look for you own voters.

He's dominating or he has dominated the news the last days, yes. But how many really care for the mainstream media news anymore? The opinion polls didn't move, AfD even gaigned in Insa yesterday.

Looking at German News Websites now, it's not even on page 1 anymore. The topic will be dead tomorrow.

[DavidB.]

Höcke is a true German patriot who says what a hell lot of people in Germany are thinking.

You know who did that too?

I totally understand why one would support the AfD and would perhaps vote for them myself, but f**k you for defending that POS.

You can support Israel even without bowing down to anti-German sentiments which have oppressed my country for too long.

I don't think Germany's extreme anti-nationalism is good or healthy at all. Apart from the fact that it is unjust to think Germans of the post-WWII generation are not allowed to love their country, it is actually counterproductive: it leads people to start thinking the way you do. However, my opposition to Germany "abolishing itself" does not mean I think Germans should suddenly stop remembering what Nazis did during WWII.

The currently existing anti-German tendencies that are caused by obsession and feelings of guilt over the past are misplaced, but so are Höcke's absurd statements -- I don't care if Germans agree with him, they are morally wrong. That would not influence my party choice because politics is not a morality play and Germany's future is on the line, but it absolutely does influence my opinion of Höcke and anyone who supports him.

As for AfD's electoral potential, statements like Höcke's may not influence the polls right now, but they do influence their electoral ceiling.

[Klartext89]

Höcke is a true German patriot who says what a hell lot of people in Germany are thinking.

You know who did that too?

I totally understand why one would support the AfD and would perhaps vote for them myself, but f**k you for defending that POS.

You can support Israel even without bowing down to anti-German sentiments which have oppressed my country for too long.

I don't think Germany's extreme anti-nationalism is good or healthy at all. Apart from the fact that it is unjust to think Germans of the post-WWII generation are not allowed to love their country, it is actually counterproductive: it leads people to start thinking the way you do. However, my opposition to Germany "abolishing itself" does not mean I think Germans should suddenly stop remembering what Nazis did during WWII.

The currently existing anti-German tendencies that are caused by obsession and feelings of guilt over the past are misplaced, but so are Höcke's absurd statements -- I don't care if Germans agree with him, they are morally wrong. That would not influence my party choice because politics is not a morality play and Germany's future is on the line, but it absolutely does influence my opinion of Höcke and anyone who supports him.

As for AfD's electoral potential, statements like Höcke's may not influence the polls right now, but they do influence their electoral ceiling.

I can live with your view even when disagreeing with certain aspects.

I don't think that Höcke is a drag on AfD electoral chances, cause you can hardly find any German aged 40 or less outside the hard-core left-wing bubble who cares about WWII and the Nazis anymore. We want freedom and silence. I had to visit Dachau in school and well, not one of us pupils was interested in it, actually nearly all male students made fun of it and the female ones were busy talking about shopping in Munich after it.

I also had to listen to a guy called "Hitlerjunge Salomon" (Hitler youth Boy Salomon I guess is the English phrase). We sat in our towns cinema, nearly 500 students from lots of school classes and different schools. Everybody was playing on his mobile phone, talking to his neighbour and nearly 20 persons were removed by this guy because of not paying attention (I wasn't, actually I was a very nice boy :-D).

I think that proofs your point of creating the opposite of what they want to.

[DavidB.]

Uh, going to Dachau and then not paying attention or making fun of it is obviously very distasteful and so is gloating about doing so. Dealing with a past like this is never easy for a country (as the Turkish example also proves) and I guess government policy is largely to blame, but even then, there's no excuse for being an asshole. My experience with young Germans is fortunately very different and that's part of the reason I have very a positive opinion of that country.

As for AfD, it is always very naive for RRWPs and their supporters to think that "people are with us or they are against us anyway" (which is a tendency that exists here in the PVV too). There are always swing voters, and RRWPs moderating their tone and booting lunatics has worked wonders for many in terms of winning votes and gaining influence over policy, which is what every political party does or at least should seek.

[Klartext89]

Let's focus on the second aspect. Your opinion is shared by my best friend, but I have some thoughts on it explaining why I disagree partly.

Hofer in Austria very moderated his tone and his views in the second round. He was pro-EU (with reforms and against United States of Europe, in other words mainly stay the same like today), he didn't call for making the election a referendum on asylum policy, he distanced himself from the patriotic "identity movement" and so on.

The result was that he lost anyway and 30% of the electorate stood home. I'm pretty sure that the biggest crowd among the 30% non-voters weren't left-wing or liberal people because they all went to the polls. I heared and read a lot about right-wing people being upset with his moderate campaign, lots of them felt betrayed and I even read accusations that he isn't quite better for "the movement" as is a van der Bellen presidency making more and more people angry and upset with his liberal agenda.

I have a friend who hopes for a red-red-green government in Germany to tank the economy, get even more "refugees", crimes, terrorist attack and way more taxation and spending cuts due to a poor economy - only to get more and more people weaking up and realizing what time it is. I have a different approach, but isn't Trump the ultimate example that you don't need to move to the center to win an election?

[DavidB.]

Of course it isn't always as clear-cut as "moving to the center means winning votes, moving to the right means losing votes"; first of all because RRWPs have the capability to shift the Overton window to the right and thereby influence both public opinion and other parties' stances, and second because by moving too far to the center, you're inevitably going to lose voters either due to splitoffs/new movements to your right, or because people are simply staying home.

However, in the case of the AfD it does seem smart not to go full Höcke. There are lots of Union voters out there who are fed up with Merkel's open border policy and may vote for the AfD but find the rhetoric of the party's right to be off-putting. In that regard, people like Höcke reinforcing the perception of those who are to the right of the CDU basically being Nazis doesn't help. Germany is extremely sensitive when it comes to "Rechtsextremismus" and even if some people on the right of the CDU may resent this sensitivity, the existing taboos inevitably have a psychological impact on people. Even regardless of my obvious policy preferences and disgust of people like Höcke, it seems wise from an electoral perspective to boot radicals who continue to focus on issues that are very sensitive and don't help the party.

In the Austrian case, I think it is likely polls overestimated Hofer's support all along, which seems to be the case for the FPÖ in every election. Regardless, it is obvious that Hofer's support in the re-run was lower than in the first turn (though still higher than Trump's!). I don't know whether people stayed home in the re-run because they thought Hofer had been too moderate; didn't he go on the attack in quite a harsh way in the last debates with VdB? But even if your assumption is true, he might have lost voters by moving to the right too.

As for the U.S. election, I think many of us at the time didn't realize just how far to the left (in the SJW sense of the word) Hillary Clinton's campaign was in the eyes of ordinary voters. To many people, Hillary Clinton seemed more left-wing than Donald Trump seemed right-wing, and one could argue that Trump is more centrist than most Republicans at least when it comes to the economy. I don't think that election shows moving to the center isn't necessarily beneficial; I think it mainly shows that what the establishment and the media sell as "mainstream" or portray as "the political center" isn't necessarily what voters view as mainstream, centrist or preferrable. Make of that what you will.

The Verelendung theory may be true, but it is always preferrable to win the next election instead of hoping for your support to grow because an incompetent government is in office.

[Tender Branson]

In the Austrian case, I think it is likely polls overestimated Hofer's support all along, which seems to be the case for the FPÖ in every election. Regardless, it is obvious that Hofer's support in the re-run was lower than in the first turn (though still higher than Trump's!). I don't know whether people stayed home in the re-run because they thought Hofer had been too moderate; didn't he go on the attack in quite a harsh way in the last debates with VdB? But even if your assumption is true, he might have lost voters by moving to the right too.

There were many factors contributing to Hofer's loss, which I have posted in the Austrian thread.

But mostly, Austrians went with the "safer" choice - because Austrians like continuity and not experiments. The Gertrude-video also helped to bring out a lot of anti-Hofer voters in the end.

Nonetheless, Hofer was the best candidate that the FPÖ could ever produce ...

[DavidB.]

But mostly, Austrians went with the "safer" choice - because Austrians like continuity and not experiments.

This would be a meaningful frame if VdB had won 65/35, but I don't see any reason to make generalizations like this in a close election like that. Over 45% of Austrians apparently don't think VdB was the "safer choice."

[Tender Branson]

But mostly, Austrians went with the "safer" choice - because Austrians like continuity and not experiments.

This would be a meaningful frame if VdB had won 65/35, but I don't see any reason to make generalizations like this in a close election like that. Over 45% of Austrians apparently don't think VdB was the "safer choice."

He was way too aggressive towards the end (especially in the last debate), engaging in full character assassination of VdB and his family, after portraying himself as "Mr. Nice Guy" throughout the campaign. This is something that many "swingy" Austrians didn't like because it re-inforced the image of Hofer as a wolf in sheeps clothing and considering that the douche Trump was elected a few weeks before that, these swingy Austrians decided to back VdB and go with the safer choice ...

[DavidB.]

He was way too aggressive towards the end (especially in the last debate), engaging in full character assassination of VdB and his family, after portraying himself as "Mr. Nice Guy" throughout the campaign. This is something that many "swingy" Austrians didn't like because it re-inforced the image of Hofer as a wolf in sheeps clothing and considering that the douche Trump was elected a few weeks before that, these swingy Austrians decided to back VdB and go with the safer choice ...

Oh, that largely sounds like valid analysis if true, no doubt about it. It is the part where you state "Austrians like continuity and not experiments" I take issue with, because it is an obviously untrue generalization: 45%> of Austrians didn't vote for VdB. If you had said "Hofer's tone was too extreme for swing voters" or something like that, I would have entirely agreed.