is it time to re-examine the criminal justice system?

[freepcrusher]

I think for too long a lot of people (liberals in particular) were too afraid to touch the issue for fear of backlash. But re-examining it doesn't mean lessening penalties or being more sympathetic.

I think the fact of the matter is that there is a high recidivism rate and I remember someone telling me who worked in the system that jail sometimes makes people worse.

What do you think would be some alternatives to the way things are?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Unless they are a clear danger to the public, they should not be imprisoned.  Drug crimes, lesser sex crimes, and petty theft crimes dominate in America's jails and even prisons... and other than the initial jail time, none of these people really need to be locked up.

Things like intensive supervision, probation, and other measures would ensure that these people stay out of trouble while they have the dignity to live their lives.

Treatment and continued integration in the community are the best alternative. 

For those that represent a danger to the community, prison should be reserved for the violent criminals with commitment to mental institutions for the mentally ill, where the goal is treatment, rehabilitation, and hopefully eventual release.

In any case, the prison should not be seen as a penitentiary, but a place of rehabilitation where prisoners are treated decently and can improve their lives within the prison grounds.  This includes educational opportunities, mentally challenging work opportunities, and access to mental health professionals.

My stance on crime and punishment has evolved towards being more lenient and compassionate.  Separation from society is, and always has, been the most severe punishment (besides death).  As such, I don't even support life sentences without the possibility of parole anymore.  Every criminal, no matter how depraved the act, should have the opportunity for redemption... even if it takes decades.

[Redalgo]

I reckon we'd be better off with a much greater emphasis on rehabilitation and a restorative, not retributive, justice system. Civil law also seems a bit more attractive to me than common law. No more death penalty and no life sentences without parole, but there should be some way to keep criminals in prison indefinitely if they clearly still pose a sufficiently serious threat to others.

My overarching perspective is that the criminal is someone who is acting in a way unfairly hindering the free exercise of others' rights and, though still valuable and entitled to many rights under the terms of the social contract they have with the state, need to be placed in environs controlled enough to prevent more inappropriate acts / violations of the contract from being perpetrated.

The way I see it, justice is done: for victims when the offenders have done everything reasonable within their power to make reparations and the state does everything reasonable in its power to protect victims from further harm; for offenders when victims are placated sufficiently that they will not seek extrajudicial retribution and the state treats them humanely - with dignity, respect, and with concern for their (hopefully) eventual restoration as productive and free members of society; and justice is done for the state and everyone else in the country negotiating with it when the constitutionally codified terms of their social contract are upheld (as a matter of mutual interest).

Snowguy's post is something I can stand by 100%, as well.

[DC Al Fine]

Broadly speaking, I want stricter sentences for the most severe crimes (at least compared to Canadian sentences, the USA I'm not so sure about) and reduced ones for minor crimes. The worst of the worst need to be locked up for a loooong time, but your typical hoodlum just isn't at that level.

I'd look into caning or some other form of corporal punishment for relatively minor crimes. It's quick, cheap, and I think it would do a better job of reducing recidivism than 1-5 year sentences.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Legalize drugs and it will clear out about half of the inmates.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Legalize drugs and it will clear out about half of the inmates.

[Badger]

Folks, I can't vouch for every state or the federal system, or even for every county in Ohio, but the system described by Snowguy already exists today. Most of the oettty drug offenses you describe are already addressed with probation and drug treatment. The question is what should the system do when someone like that won't seriously engage in treatment.

I'm not talking about a single relapse and trying again, but multiple relapses, failure to more than sporadically go to counseling and meet with their probation officer to piss (if at all). THAT is the type of case that results in petty heroin or Oxy possession cases winding up in prison, or even in a lockdown rehab center.

FWIW, with an occassional alcohol-fueled repeat domestic violence/serious assault/mega-repeat OVI, "drug-related crime" is nearly redundant. With the above alcohol-inspired exceptions (yes, booze is a drug), almost every felony offense I see--burglaries, forgeries, robberies, credit card and ID frauds, etc.--are driven by a serious illegal hard drug addiction. Most often heroin which, relative to other drugs, is cheap. It's SOOOO damn addictive though that the whole "black market prices drives people to crime to feed their habit" theory just doesn't jive with reality. If hits were legal and say half the cost of current street value, addicts would still need to commit crimes to feed the utterly voracious nature of heroin addiction.

Anyhoo, I too generally agree with Snowguy, but other than the pen can be a dangerous place due to other inmates (thank you for the budget cuts, Gov. Kasich), it's already in place.

Any further constructive suggestions from the gallery? I'm all ears.

[ElectionsGuy]

Yes, definitely, Also:

Legalize drugs and it will clear out about half of the inmates.

I don't think half of them are drug users, but this there's way too many drug users in prison.

[Modernity has failed us]

It's been time for roughly 30 years.

[Badger]

It's been time for roughly 30 years.

So, now that Snowguy's suggestions have largely been implemented already, what do we do next?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It is always time to re-examine the criminal justice system. To not do so is unjust, and also (morally) criminal.

[Modernity has failed us]

It's been time for roughly 30 years.

So, now that Snowguy's suggestions have largely been implemented already, what do we do next?

Implement full socialism and party our asses off.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Folks, I can't vouch for every state or the federal system, or even for every county in Ohio, but the system described by Snowguy already exists today. Most of the oettty drug offenses you describe are already addressed with probation and drug treatment. The question is what should the system do when someone like that won't seriously engage in treatment.

I'm not talking about a single relapse and trying again, but multiple relapses, failure to more than sporadically go to counseling and meet with their probation officer to piss (if at all). THAT is the type of case that results in petty heroin or Oxy possession cases winding up in prison, or even in a lockdown rehab center.

FWIW, with an occassional alcohol-fueled repeat domestic violence/serious assault/mega-repeat OVI, "drug-related crime" is nearly redundant. With the above alcohol-inspired exceptions (yes, booze is a drug), almost every felony offense I see--burglaries, forgeries, robberies, credit card and ID frauds, etc.--are driven by a serious illegal hard drug addiction. Most often heroin which, relative to other drugs, is cheap. It's SOOOO damn addictive though that the whole "black market prices drives people to crime to feed their habit" theory just doesn't jive with reality. If hits were legal and say half the cost of current street value, addicts would still need to commit crimes to feed the utterly voracious nature of heroin addiction.

Anyhoo, I too generally agree with Snowguy, but other than the pen can be a dangerous place due to other inmates (thank you for the budget cuts, Gov. Kasich), it's already in place.

Any further constructive suggestions from the gallery? I'm all ears.

I'm saying that my suggestions should be implemented nationwide.  People in Louisiana end up in prison for possession of small amounts of marijuana all the time.  And all the budget cutting they love to do down there makes their prisons dangerous.  A dangerous prison is cruel and unusual punishment, imo.

My state has one of the lowest incarceration rates of any state.  People are given a 2nd chance here and most judges are very supportive of giving people plenty of chances to engage in treatment (whether it be chemical dependency, sex offender treatment, anger management, etc.)

Even so, the sentences for crimes here tend to be too long.  And judges love to do things like slap a no-drink order on somebody who stole a shirt from the mall.. and they end up having their sentence executed because they were caught out at the bar.  It's ridiculous.

Progress is being made, Badger.. but there's a lot of work to do yet.

[Badger]

Folks, I can't vouch for every state or the federal system, or even for every county in Ohio, but the system described by Snowguy already exists today. Most of the oettty drug offenses you describe are already addressed with probation and drug treatment. The question is what should the system do when someone like that won't seriously engage in treatment.

I'm not talking about a single relapse and trying again, but multiple relapses, failure to more than sporadically go to counseling and meet with their probation officer to piss (if at all). THAT is the type of case that results in petty heroin or Oxy possession cases winding up in prison, or even in a lockdown rehab center.

FWIW, with an occassional alcohol-fueled repeat domestic violence/serious assault/mega-repeat OVI, "drug-related crime" is nearly redundant. With the above alcohol-inspired exceptions (yes, booze is a drug), almost every felony offense I see--burglaries, forgeries, robberies, credit card and ID frauds, etc.--are driven by a serious illegal hard drug addiction. Most often heroin which, relative to other drugs, is cheap. It's SOOOO damn addictive though that the whole "black market prices drives people to crime to feed their habit" theory just doesn't jive with reality. If hits were legal and say half the cost of current street value, addicts would still need to commit crimes to feed the utterly voracious nature of heroin addiction.

Anyhoo, I too generally agree with Snowguy, but other than the pen can be a dangerous place due to other inmates (thank you for the budget cuts, Gov. Kasich), it's already in place.

Any further constructive suggestions from the gallery? I'm all ears.

I'm saying that my suggestions should be implemented nationwide.  People in Louisiana end up in prison for possession of small amounts of marijuana all the time.  And all the budget cutting they love to do down there makes their prisons dangerous.  A dangerous prison is cruel and unusual punishment, imo.

My state has one of the lowest incarceration rates of any state.  People are given a 2nd chance here and most judges are very supportive of giving people plenty of chances to engage in treatment (whether it be chemical dependency, sex offender treatment, anger management, etc.)

Even so, the sentences for crimes here tend to be too long.  And judges love to do things like slap a no-drink order on somebody who stole a shirt from the mall.. and they end up having their sentence executed because they were caught out at the bar.  It's ridiculous.

Progress is being made, Badger.. but there's a lot of work to do yet.

Fair enough. Ohio sounds a lot like MN in that regard. People rarely do time beyond the several weeks of initial jail time (if even that) pre-sentencing on lower-level possession cases. The only ways people usually do prison there are a) f up on probation like I described; b) have priors, usually multiples; c) "possess" obviously non-personal use level dealer quantities.