Opinion of Switzerland's "minimum income" proposal
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  Opinion of Switzerland's "minimum income" proposal
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Poll
Question: Would you support adopting something similar in the United States?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
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Total Voters: 42

Author Topic: Opinion of Switzerland's "minimum income" proposal  (Read 2419 times)
Lief 🗽
Lief
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2013, 01:40:13 PM »

They voted by over 2/3 to place "severe" restrictions on executive compensation a few months ago. Like most human beings, the Swiss are reasonable and reject libertarian nonsense.
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Link
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2013, 02:00:53 PM »


Sounds good.  It makes no sense that a bum on the street who hasn't cost any shareholder a nickel has nothing and someone who destroys billions of dollars worth of shareholder wealth walks away with tens of millions and in some cases hundreds of millions.
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Franzl
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2013, 03:15:35 PM »


The Swiss also voted to ban minarets. But I guess compared to other places that have strong direct democracy (such as California), the Swiss do go about it comparatively responsibly.
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barfbag
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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2013, 09:25:13 PM »


Sounds good.  It makes no sense that a bum on the street who hasn't cost any shareholder a nickel has nothing and someone who destroys billions of dollars worth of shareholder wealth walks away with tens of millions and in some cases hundreds of millions.

So you want $2,800 to go to someone for doing nothing?
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snowguy716
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2013, 09:40:37 PM »


Sounds good.  It makes no sense that a bum on the street who hasn't cost any shareholder a nickel has nothing and someone who destroys billions of dollars worth of shareholder wealth walks away with tens of millions and in some cases hundreds of millions.

So you want $2,800 to go to someone for doing nothing?

Seems like such a crazy concept... but yeah, actually.
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tik 🪀✨
ComradeCarter
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2013, 04:43:50 AM »


Sounds good.  It makes no sense that a bum on the street who hasn't cost any shareholder a nickel has nothing and someone who destroys billions of dollars worth of shareholder wealth walks away with tens of millions and in some cases hundreds of millions.

So you want $2,800 to go to someone for doing nothing?

Doing nothing is the sum of many a working person. Not that they are slacking off, mind you - just that the endless toil amounts to little more than lost time. I scamper about all day in a factory to survive. I am wasting life and (relative) youth. For what real purpose?

But that's what is required of me to support my family and live well, so I do it. It's not hard to see through. If I had a guaranteed income I wouldn't be a sloth. I would live in true freedom. I'd have the means to try my own ventures. I wouldn't stress as much. I'd spend more, probably.

Anyway, it wouldn't work well large scale, I imagine. Still, it's not hard to see the appeal.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2013, 05:06:09 AM »

This is the future of productive, stable societies. Sure, we might not be ready for it just yet, but the future is bleak for the über vast majority of mankind if we do not implement some form of automated profit-sharing economy within the next half-century. Machines will continue to put human beings out of work, and the continuation of these trends will exponentially become apparent. Those who make the argument that new industries and demands will create sufficient long-term employment alternatives aren't considering just what will come post-Singularity or whatever equivalent title you'd like to give it. Not only will machines continue to outpace humans in mundane, repetitive tasks, but it's very likely that a nano chip will be writing better poetry and music within a few decades, too.

This is why worldwide nationalization of all utilities and any industries that are not niche, competition-driven consumer products needs to occur ASAP - we have to be able to pay for our future lack of utility.
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Mordecai
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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2013, 06:11:42 AM »

Would you support scrapping Social Security, food stamps, unemployment insurance and minimum wage laws and replacing all of these with a $2,800 payment, indexed to inflation and given to every American over the age of 18 every month?
No. I think it would end up doing more harm than good.
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Torie
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2013, 10:58:18 AM »

it is more about what I fear would be the impact on the mental well being and self esteem of the recipients

Never seen any medical literature saying people became afflicted with mental illness when given a living wage... actually quite the opposite.

Not sure how this scheme would work.  Details do matter.

Speaking of details, I said "mental well being," not "mental illness," which to me implies psychosis.

That is the narrowest definition of "mental illness" I've ever heard.  What percentage of people with a diagnosable mental illness suffer from psychosis?  Your venn diagram is flipped.

No point in getting into semantical arguments, I thought what I thought, but anyway, for elucidative purposes, here is one iteration of your Venn diagram for future reference. I never thought of so called neurosis as a mental illness, but whatever.  I guess there is indeed a lot of mental illness in my bloodline. Tongue
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barfbag
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2013, 12:35:00 PM »

This idea would turn them into Greece.
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opebo
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2013, 12:38:18 PM »


Sounds good.  It makes no sense that a bum on the street who hasn't cost any shareholder a nickel has nothing and someone who destroys billions of dollars worth of shareholder wealth walks away with tens of millions and in some cases hundreds of millions.

So you want $2,800 to go to someone for doing nothing?

The whole structure and purpose of capitalist society is to give money to people for doing nothing - the owners.
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barfbag
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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2013, 12:57:38 PM »


Sounds good.  It makes no sense that a bum on the street who hasn't cost any shareholder a nickel has nothing and someone who destroys billions of dollars worth of shareholder wealth walks away with tens of millions and in some cases hundreds of millions.

So you want $2,800 to go to someone for doing nothing?

The whole structure and purpose of capitalist society is to give money to people for doing nothing - the owners.

not true
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The Mikado
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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2013, 09:17:19 PM »

Switzerland is a very rich country with 8 million inhabitants, presumably far fewer if you're only considering adults.  If they want to be the canary in the coalmine for this scheme they should go right ahead, the rest of the world will see how it works.  Presumably the $ amount would be far lower almost anywhere else...Luxembourg is pretty much the only place I can think of that could afford to be that generous per citizen.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2013, 09:56:18 PM »

Switzerland is a very rich country with 8 million inhabitants, presumably far fewer if you're only considering adults.  If they want to be the canary in the coalmine for this scheme they should go right ahead, the rest of the world will see how it works.  Presumably the $ amount would be far lower almost anywhere else...Luxembourg is pretty much the only place I can think of that could afford to be that generous per citizen.

The rentier oil states of the Persian Gulf - Bahrain, Qatar, the UAE - could do so also. Though in a way, they already have a very non-universal, non-equitable version of a guaranteed minimum income by virtue of paying stipends to men who can claim some tangential blood relation to the royal family and giving government jobs to well-connected individuals who quite literally get paid to do nothing (I'd love to see the look on Krazen's face if he met some of the Middle East's civil servants).
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barfbag
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« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2013, 03:56:28 PM »


Sounds good.  It makes no sense that a bum on the street who hasn't cost any shareholder a nickel has nothing and someone who destroys billions of dollars worth of shareholder wealth walks away with tens of millions and in some cases hundreds of millions.

So you want $2,800 to go to someone for doing nothing?

Doing nothing is the sum of many a working person. Not that they are slacking off, mind you - just that the endless toil amounts to little more than lost time. I scamper about all day in a factory to survive. I am wasting life and (relative) youth. For what real purpose?

But that's what is required of me to support my family and live well, so I do it. It's not hard to see through. If I had a guaranteed income I wouldn't be a sloth. I would live in true freedom. I'd have the means to try my own ventures. I wouldn't stress as much. I'd spend more, probably.

Anyway, it wouldn't work well large scale, I imagine. Still, it's not hard to see the appeal.

Oh there's an appeal, but it's counterproductive to the economy. The way to a successful economy is through the free market, low taxes, stopping inflation, allowing the right to work in all 50 states, importing seasonal farmworkers with a path to citizenship, free trade, job training programs, and of course safety nets for the poor and elderly such as social security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, and WIC. It sounds like we do all of this, but we could use some more job training programs for our youth and level our corporate tax off at 34%.
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