GOP faces another gay rights balancing act

[TNF]

>pretending that the GOP has ever cared about gay rights

lol

[Indy Texas]

As I have said many times, I am a cross pressured voter. I am pleased that the GOP is moving in the right direction on gay issues, and the speed of that movement is now getting more rapid than glacial. Rome was not built in a day. Tell you what. When the teachers' unions stop owning the Democratic Party, I will have a serious internal discussion with myself about my partisan affiliation. The state of secondary education in poorer hoods is the single most important issue to me - one that I am very passionate about.

Sorry to get off topic. But this issue about the color of my avatar keeps coming up again and again. So thus the explanation.

...you stay in a party that considers you a deviant second-class citizen because you think teachers' unions "own" the other party. Bad schools in the ghetto is the "single most important issue" to you despite the fact that you're an old, rich white who has no children and doesn't live anywhere near the wrong side of the tracks.

[Torie]

It's not all about me Texas.

[Indy Texas]

It's not all about me Texas.

What have you actually done to improve poor-quality public schools in poor areas, Torie? (And no, "voting Republican" does not count.) Have you ever donated your money or your time or anything else to enhancing the educational experience of underprivileged students?

[All Along The Watchtower]

As I have said many times, I am a cross pressured voter. I am pleased that the GOP is moving in the right direction on gay issues, and the speed of that movement is now getting more rapid than glacial. Rome was not built in a day. Tell you what. When the teachers' unions stop owning the Democratic Party, I will have a serious internal discussion with myself about my partisan affiliation. The state of secondary education in poorer hoods is the single most important issue to me - one that I am very passionate about.

Sorry to get off topic. But this issue about the color of my avatar keeps coming up again and again. So thus the explanation.

...you stay in a party that considers you a deviant second-class citizen because you think teachers' unions "own" the other party. Bad schools in the ghetto is the "single most important issue" to you despite the fact that you're an old, rich white who has no children and doesn't live anywhere near the wrong side of the tracks.

To be frank, I'm not worried about Torie's rights being violated by anti-gay policies. Look at where he lives...or indeed, his economic background.

[King]

"Balancing act" -- that's cute.

[Torie]

It's not all about me Texas.

What have you actually done to improve poor-quality public schools in poor areas, Torie? (And no, "voting Republican" does not count.) Have you ever donated your money or your time or anything else to enhancing the educational experience of underprivileged students?

Without getting into all of that, is your point that you don't think I really believe what I said I believe, or what?

[Indy Texas]

It's not all about me Texas.

What have you actually done to improve poor-quality public schools in poor areas, Torie? (And no, "voting Republican" does not count.) Have you ever donated your money or your time or anything else to enhancing the educational experience of underprivileged students?

Without getting into all of that, is your point that you don't think I really believe what I said I believe, or what?

Is "without getting into all of that" your dignified way of admitting that you haven't really done anything to improve public schools?

My mother used to be a teacher in one of those "failing" schools. If you could explain how cutting her pay and her benefits would magically make her impoverished students succeed, I'd love to know.

There are plenty of Democratic governors and state legislators who have enacted pension reform for teachers and other state employees. And I suppose the name Michelle Rhee means nothing to you.

[DC Al Fine]

It's not all about me Texas.

What have you actually done to improve poor-quality public schools in poor areas, Torie? (And no, "voting Republican" does not count.) Have you ever donated your money or your time or anything else to enhancing the educational experience of underprivileged students?

Without getting into all of that, is your point that you don't think I really believe what I said I believe, or what?

Is "without getting into all of that" your dignified way of admitting that you haven't really done anything to improve public schools?

My mother used to be a teacher in one of those "failing" schools. If you could explain how cutting her pay and her benefits would magically make her impoverished students succeed, I'd love to know.

There are plenty of Democratic governors and state legislators who have enacted pension reform for teachers and other state employees. And I suppose the name Michelle Rhee means nothing to you.

I've always heard teacher's pensions argued as size of government/labour issue, not an education issue. Anyway, here are some possibilities for what Torie takes issue with

• Inability to fire teachers disproportionately affects the poor
• Opposition to vouchers/charter schools limits poor parents' options

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

"Merit " pay advocates believe that the problem is with teachers, that they are not trying hard enough.

No.  Merit pay is intended to encourage good teachers to remain in teaching instead of finding other work while encouraging bad teachers to find some other line of work they are better suited at.  I don't think that except for a few krazens anyone thinks merit pay will encourage teachers to work harder.  Of course for merit pay to work, you need to have a good method of determining teacher merit and one can certainly debate how to do that.

[Torie]

We're done Texas. You are just too tough for me to handle. Thanks.

[Link]

I've always heard teacher's pensions argued as size of government/labour issue, not an education issue. Anyway, here are some possibilities for what Torie takes issue with

• Inability to fire teachers disproportionately affects the poor
• Opposition to vouchers/charter schools limits poor parents' options

Pensions are just simple math.  If the math doesn't work, cut.  You don't do this Scott Walker BS of busting the teacher's unions and then giving the police and fire fighters a free pass.  That's politics not math.

DC I understand you are trying to make sense of this thread and are only offering suggestions but I too have done some actual tutoring work in inner city schools and I wouldn't recommend most of the students I worked with for a "better" school.  They were not leveraging the resources available to them at their current school.  And what was a big reason for that?  Piss poor parenting.  Busting the teacher's union, firing people, and monkeying around with teacher's pay is not going to fix the fact these these kids went home to an undisciplined home environment.  I had that job as a teenager.  I was fresh out of high school and had no strong love for teachers or public school.  I didn't know anything about teachers unions or whatever it is Republicans rant about.  I just went in there as a teenager and tried to do an outstanding job.  The teachers were the most intelligent, well dressed, kindest, professional people in the building.  A lot of the parent's were walking disasters.  Long before I got so interested in politics I took one look at that situation and pin pointed the problem.  If someone told me years later I would be sitting here with people telling me the actual problem wasn't the highly irresponsible parents but the well groomed, educated, professional teachers I would have called them a liar.  My reality that I live and the Republican propaganda simply don't jibe.  Something is wrong.  I'm sure there are some schools with poor leadership and poor teachers.  Just like there are private companies with poor leadership and workers.  But this sweeping statement that that is why ALL or most inner city schools are the way they are is bizarre.

Seriously if someone came to that school where I worked and said we are going to fix this by busting the teachers union I would have thought it was a joke.   I just don't get it.  I tried to go in there and make a difference and to come out and hear the "solutions" people are talking about is very disappointing.

If someone thinks the problem is most of the teachers suck.  I challenge each of you to go down to those schools and teach and show me and the rest of the world the amazing results you are getting with your randomly chosen sample of kids.

[Indy Texas]

We're done Texas. You are just too tough for me to handle. Thanks.

If that's all it takes to make you pick up your ball and go home, you must be one hell of a lawyer, Torie.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

We're done Texas. You are just too tough for me to handle. Thanks.

If that's all it takes to make you pick up your ball and go home, you must be one hell of a lawyer, Torie.

A good lawyer knows when the billable hours would cost more than could be gained by continuing to stay in court.  He's not gonna convince you and you aren't gonna convince him, and you've both had your say.  Why should he keep rerehashing things with you?

[Sbane]

We're done Texas. You are just too tough for me to handle. Thanks.

If that's all it takes to make you pick up your ball and go home, you must be one hell of a lawyer, Torie.

When has Torie advocated cutting teacher's pay? Sure, many Republicans, including Krazen, might actually be after that but Torie wants the good teachers to be rewarded. You should not get paid more just based on seniority and bad teachers need to be fired. And just to get personal (since you don't have a problem doing so), if your mom was a good teacher she deserved to get more money, and if she wasn't, then she deserved to get fired.

[Indy Texas]

We're done Texas. You are just too tough for me to handle. Thanks.

If that's all it takes to make you pick up your ball and go home, you must be one hell of a lawyer, Torie.

When has Torie advocated cutting teacher's pay? Sure, many Republicans, including Krazen, might actually be after that but Torie wants the good teachers to be rewarded. You should not get paid more just based on seniority and bad teachers need to be fired. And just to get personal (since you don't have a problem doing so), if your mom was a good teacher she deserved to get more money, and if she wasn't, then she deserved to get fired.

Is this Halloween or Everyone Gang Up On Indy Day? I asked a simple question and Torie refused to answer it. He says he cares about making public schools better and is willing to throw his lot in with a political party that has been nothing but hostile toward his own demographic in order to do that. He won't explain what Republicans have done to make education better and he hasn't explained what he has done either.

As to your comment, who gets to decide whether my mother was a good teacher or a bad teacher? What criteria are being used? And why is the first assumption when students are doing poorly that it must be the fault of the teachers?

[Sbane]

There are a lot of reasons going behind student performance, I get that. Students in nicer neighborhoods, who don't live in poverty or have parents who speak English are at an advantage. A teacher is going to have an easier time successfully educating privileged students. That doesn't mean we can't compare apples to apples and weed out the bad teachers. We all know there are good teachers and bad, just like there are good workers and bad workers in every field. Teachers though don't have any incentive to prove their performance, and on the flip side they don't have any means of getting recognized for their good work.

[DC Al Fine]

I've always heard teacher's pensions argued as size of government/labour issue, not an education issue. Anyway, here are some possibilities for what Torie takes issue with

• Inability to fire teachers disproportionately affects the poor
• Opposition to vouchers/charter schools limits poor parents' options

Pensions are just simple math.  If the math doesn't work, cut.  You don't do this Scott Walker BS of busting the teacher's unions and then giving the police and fire fighters a free pass.  That's politics not math.

DC I understand you are trying to make sense of this thread and are only offering suggestions but I too have done some actual tutoring work in inner city schools and I wouldn't recommend most of the students I worked with for a "better" school.  They were not leveraging the resources available to them at their current school.  And what was a big reason for that?  Piss poor parenting.  Busting the teacher's union, firing people, and monkeying around with teacher's pay is not going to fix the fact these these kids went home to an undisciplined home environment.  I had that job as a teenager.  I was fresh out of high school and had no strong love for teachers or public school.  I didn't know anything about teachers unions or whatever it is Republicans rant about.  I just went in there as a teenager and tried to do an outstanding job.  The teachers were the most intelligent, well dressed, kindest, professional people in the building.  A lot of the parent's were walking disasters.  Long before I got so interested in politics I took one look at that situation and pin pointed the problem.  If someone told me years later I would be sitting here with people telling me the actual problem wasn't the highly irresponsible parents but the well groomed, educated, professional teachers I would have called them a liar.  My reality that I live and the Republican propaganda simply don't jibe.  Something is wrong.  I'm sure there are some schools with poor leadership and poor teachers.  Just like there are private companies with poor leadership and workers.  But this sweeping statement that that is why ALL or most inner city schools are the way they are is bizarre.

Seriously if someone came to that school where I worked and said we are going to fix this by busting the teachers union I would have thought it was a joke.   I just don't get it.  I tried to go in there and make a difference and to come out and hear the "solutions" people are talking about is very disappointing.

If someone thinks the problem is most of the teachers suck.  I challenge each of you to go down to those schools and teach and show me and the rest of the world the amazing results you are getting with your randomly chosen sample of kids.

Link, we've had this misunderstanding a couple of times now. I'm not a fiscally orthodox GOPer. I'd really appreciate if you don't start talking about Scott Walker when I suggest stuff because I think we agree on 90% of this issue. /rant

Now as for what you were discussing, I agree for the most part. The problem I have with dealing with cultural issues is that they're extremely hard to fix, and a long term solution is required. Dealing with the unions is a band-aid but a fairly effective one insofar as it would give the brighter, better parented children a better chance at success.

[Indy Texas]

I've always heard teacher's pensions argued as size of government/labour issue, not an education issue. Anyway, here are some possibilities for what Torie takes issue with

• Inability to fire teachers disproportionately affects the poor
• Opposition to vouchers/charter schools limits poor parents' options

Pensions are just simple math.  If the math doesn't work, cut.  You don't do this Scott Walker BS of busting the teacher's unions and then giving the police and fire fighters a free pass.  That's politics not math.

DC I understand you are trying to make sense of this thread and are only offering suggestions but I too have done some actual tutoring work in inner city schools and I wouldn't recommend most of the students I worked with for a "better" school.  They were not leveraging the resources available to them at their current school.  And what was a big reason for that?  Piss poor parenting.  Busting the teacher's union, firing people, and monkeying around with teacher's pay is not going to fix the fact these these kids went home to an undisciplined home environment.  I had that job as a teenager.  I was fresh out of high school and had no strong love for teachers or public school.  I didn't know anything about teachers unions or whatever it is Republicans rant about.  I just went in there as a teenager and tried to do an outstanding job.  The teachers were the most intelligent, well dressed, kindest, professional people in the building.  A lot of the parent's were walking disasters.  Long before I got so interested in politics I took one look at that situation and pin pointed the problem.  If someone told me years later I would be sitting here with people telling me the actual problem wasn't the highly irresponsible parents but the well groomed, educated, professional teachers I would have called them a liar.  My reality that I live and the Republican propaganda simply don't jibe.  Something is wrong.  I'm sure there are some schools with poor leadership and poor teachers.  Just like there are private companies with poor leadership and workers.  But this sweeping statement that that is why ALL or most inner city schools are the way they are is bizarre.

Seriously if someone came to that school where I worked and said we are going to fix this by busting the teachers union I would have thought it was a joke.   I just don't get it.  I tried to go in there and make a difference and to come out and hear the "solutions" people are talking about is very disappointing.

If someone thinks the problem is most of the teachers suck.  I challenge each of you to go down to those schools and teach and show me and the rest of the world the amazing results you are getting with your randomly chosen sample of kids.

Link, we've had this misunderstanding a couple of times now. I'm not a fiscally orthodox GOPer. I'd really appreciate if you don't start talking about Scott Walker when I suggest stuff because I think we agree on 90% of this issue. /rant

Now as for what you were discussing, I agree for the most part. The problem I have with dealing with cultural issues is that they're extremely hard to fix, and a long term solution is required. Dealing with the unions is a band-aid but a fairly effective one insofar as it would give the brighter, better parented children a better chance at success.

Then why don't you just find a different color for your avatar, Al, because if you walked into a Republican precinct meeting where I'm from you'd be called a bloody socialist by the end of the evening. If you're not a "fiscally orthodox" Republican in this day and age, you are, for all intents and purposes, not a Republican. You would have fit in in the Bush years, and in the '90s, but not today.

[DC Al Fine]

I've always heard teacher's pensions argued as size of government/labour issue, not an education issue. Anyway, here are some possibilities for what Torie takes issue with

• Inability to fire teachers disproportionately affects the poor
• Opposition to vouchers/charter schools limits poor parents' options

Pensions are just simple math.  If the math doesn't work, cut.  You don't do this Scott Walker BS of busting the teacher's unions and then giving the police and fire fighters a free pass.  That's politics not math.

DC I understand you are trying to make sense of this thread and are only offering suggestions but I too have done some actual tutoring work in inner city schools and I wouldn't recommend most of the students I worked with for a "better" school.  They were not leveraging the resources available to them at their current school.  And what was a big reason for that?  Piss poor parenting.  Busting the teacher's union, firing people, and monkeying around with teacher's pay is not going to fix the fact these these kids went home to an undisciplined home environment.  I had that job as a teenager.  I was fresh out of high school and had no strong love for teachers or public school.  I didn't know anything about teachers unions or whatever it is Republicans rant about.  I just went in there as a teenager and tried to do an outstanding job.  The teachers were the most intelligent, well dressed, kindest, professional people in the building.  A lot of the parent's were walking disasters.  Long before I got so interested in politics I took one look at that situation and pin pointed the problem.  If someone told me years later I would be sitting here with people telling me the actual problem wasn't the highly irresponsible parents but the well groomed, educated, professional teachers I would have called them a liar.  My reality that I live and the Republican propaganda simply don't jibe.  Something is wrong.  I'm sure there are some schools with poor leadership and poor teachers.  Just like there are private companies with poor leadership and workers.  But this sweeping statement that that is why ALL or most inner city schools are the way they are is bizarre.

Seriously if someone came to that school where I worked and said we are going to fix this by busting the teachers union I would have thought it was a joke.   I just don't get it.  I tried to go in there and make a difference and to come out and hear the "solutions" people are talking about is very disappointing.

If someone thinks the problem is most of the teachers suck.  I challenge each of you to go down to those schools and teach and show me and the rest of the world the amazing results you are getting with your randomly chosen sample of kids.

Link, we've had this misunderstanding a couple of times now. I'm not a fiscally orthodox GOPer. I'd really appreciate if you don't start talking about Scott Walker when I suggest stuff because I think we agree on 90% of this issue. /rant

Now as for what you were discussing, I agree for the most part. The problem I have with dealing with cultural issues is that they're extremely hard to fix, and a long term solution is required. Dealing with the unions is a band-aid but a fairly effective one insofar as it would give the brighter, better parented children a better chance at success.

Then why don't you just find a different color for your avatar, Al, because if you walked into a Republican precinct meeting where I'm from you'd be called a bloody socialist by the end of the evening. If you're not a "fiscally orthodox" Republican in this day and age, you are, for all intents and purposes, not a Republican. You would have fit in in the Bush years, and in the '90s, but not today.

My social views are such that I would fit in even worse with the Democrats.