Opinion of people raised Catholic who don't identify as Catholic anymore

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm one.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm one.

HP then.

[I Will Not Be Wrong]

I'm one of these people.

[Zioneer]

Well, since a lot of those in Latin America that convert to Mormonism are those, FFs.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I know the question seems kind of silly, but it seems like lots of people including many who aren't even Catholic oddly would hold them in contempt because they consider them either:

1-Traitors (like this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CategoryTraitor)
and/or 2-People who are degrading culture blah blah blah and thus somehow harming society in some way.

It's quite bizarre. Weirdly this includes a lot of True Leftists when it's a very reactionary and traditionalist conservative view.

Assuming you're right, this seems to be an exclusively American thing. In European countries (especially those where Catholicism used to be the mainstream religion), being a nonbeliever is not a big deal. I mean, I guess a hardline Catholic would be sad for you because you're going to go to hell etc., but nothing more.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I know the question seems kind of silly, but it seems like lots of people including many who aren't even Catholic oddly would hold them in contempt because they consider them either:

1-Traitors (like this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CategoryTraitor)
and/or 2-People who are degrading culture blah blah blah and thus somehow harming society in some way.

It's quite bizarre. Weirdly this includes a lot of True Leftists when it's a very reactionary and traditionalist conservative view.

Assuming you're right, this seems to be an exclusively American thing. In European countries (especially those where Catholicism used to be the mainstream religion), being a nonbeliever is not a big deal. I mean, I guess a hardline Catholic would be sad for you because you're going to go to hell etc., but nothing more.

Well Ireland is Europe...

Also it's not really about being a nonbeliever but identification. Like see oakvale's post above. Now what about someone who sheds all type of Catholic association or identification (which is basically the rule in the Midwest for non-believers) or converts to something else?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Like see oakvale's post above.

Anyway, I have a hard time seeing why anyone who doesn't believe in God would ever identify as a Catholic (or as any other religion, for that matter).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Like see oakvale's post above.

Wrong thread. I was thinking of this one:

Many of the cultural/cafeteria Catholics don't quit the RCC because they feel some sort of vague connection, whether it be via force of habit/family tradition, or just because they grew up in it and its what they are familiar with. Also, Catholicism isn't exactly favorable to schisms, so it's not like Protestants who just start a new church if they disagree on a major issue.

Believe it or not, most people don't spend much time thinking about their belief systems, religious or political or whatever.

Exactly. I don't believe in Jesus or anything like that but I was raised Catholic and my cultural context is at least somewhat influenced by Catholicism, most of my relatives are at least nominally Catholic (go to Mass at Christmas etc.)... so I'm not going to bother formally renouncing the church or whatever. Who cares? I'm happier having some vestige of cultural tradition and history than attempting to remake myself as rugged individualist 21st Century Man devoid of all shared cultural identity.

Anyway, I have a hard time seeing why anyone who doesn't believe in God would ever identify as a Catholic (or as any other religion, for that matter).

You know, CULTURE OMG!

For the record I agree with this and as stated before, that's generally what the case is in the Midwest. I just keep getting responded to with that the Midwest is apparently this freak region unlike everywhere else in the world and everywhere else anyone ever raised Catholic is considered Catholic for life, whether they believe in God or not.

[Antonio the Sixth]

For the record I agree with this and as stated before, that's generally what the case is in the Midwest. I just keep getting responded to with that the Midwest is apparently this freak region unlike everywhere else in the world and everywhere else anyone ever raised Catholic is considered Catholic for life, whether they believe in God or not.

Yeah, I don't get Oakvale here. I mean, there's nothing wrong with appreciating Catholic culture even when you don't believe in its religious component (there are many things I do like about it), but how can you call yourself Catholic? Besides being objectively wrong, it seems almost offensive to actual believers.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Catholic ===> Non-believers - FF
Catholic ===> stay Catholic - Neutral
Catholic ===> Protestant - HHHHHP

Let's just go with those three categories for now.  Obviously there are all kinds of religions and belief systems they can switch to.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Catholic ===> Non-believers - FF
Catholic ===> stay Catholic - Neutral
Catholic ===> Protestant - HHHHHP

Let's just go with those three categories for now.  Obviously there are all kinds of religions and belief systems they can switch to.

Uh, what if that means joining a far more liberal church? A lot of my friends after all fall in this category...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

BRTD... let me put it you simply and basically

This is where you live...

.... which is part of your state...

.... which is part of your country....

....which has its own expectations and cultures....

....WHICH ARE NOT UNIVERSAL. GOD DAMN IT.

....CERTAIN THINGS HAVE CULTURAL AND HISTORICAL MEANINGS WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME EVERYWHERE EVEN AMONG THE SAME PEOPLES



Is that good? Is that bad? Does it matter? Either way, it does not necessarily mean what it would mean in Minneapolis, MN. Now can you please stop... Kittens are dying.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Catholic ===> Non-believers - FF
Catholic ===> stay Catholic - Neutral
Catholic ===> Protestant - HHHHHP

Let's just go with those three categories for now.  Obviously there are all kinds of religions and belief systems they can switch to.

Uh, what if that means joining a far more liberal church? A lot of my friends after all fall in this category...

I should've said "in general". No, your friends are cool.  Let's admit though... most of the Catholics who go Protestant are your insufferable born-again Bible thumpers. 

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Let's admit though... most of the Catholics who go Protestant are your insufferable born-again Bible thumpers. 

Now that you mention it, I'm curious: What are the statistics for this? I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were the case but I also wouldn't be surprised if it weren't.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD... let me put it you simply and basically

This is where you live...

.... which is part of your state...

.... which is part of your country....

....which has its own expectations and cultures....

....WHICH ARE NOT UNIVERSAL. GOD DAMN IT.

....CERTAIN THINGS HAVE CULTURAL AND HISTORICAL MEANINGS WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME EVERYWHERE EVEN AMONG THE SAME PEOPLES



Is that good? Is that bad? Does it matter? Either way, it does not necessarily mean what it would mean in Minneapolis, MN. Now can you please stop... Kittens are dying.

So...can I take this as admittance that in fact being raised Catholic is not thought as some type of important and lifelong cultural identifier in Minnesota for the most part, and especially not in Minneapolis (especially considering how many people in Minneapolis moved there to GET AWAY from their childhood history and raising.) ?

Let's admit though... most of the Catholics who go Protestant are your insufferable born-again Bible thumpers. 

Now that you mention it, I'm curious: What are the statistics for this? I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were the case but I also wouldn't be surprised if it weren't.

Well according to the last Pew survey on this, 60% are evangelical, about a third go mainline, and 6.666...% go black church (suspect this part is lower and it's just statistical stuff). So we can say about 2/3 evangelical and 1/3 mainline. Strong majority for evangelical, but not overwhelming. Plus those evangelicals are probably more liberal than evangelicals at large, newer movements and emergents are probably more represented. So even as a generalization, the statement is a bit hard to defend.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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NOBODY SAID IT DID. IN MINNESOTA. MINNESOTA IS NOT OTHER PLACES. GOOD, WE AGREE.

[Tender Branson]

I am one of those.

My family was never really that religious, even though when we were younger went to masses at Easter, Christmas etc. every year.

As well as the usual things like funerals and their masses, children who get baptized etc.

A few years ago, I quit the CC alltogether.

Too much weird stuff going on within that organisation (from middle-aged views, to abuses, to church services here in Austria where you fall asleep after 1 minute already).

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Why do we have to have an oppinion on everyone?
Can't people who were raised Catholic but aren't Catholic anymore just get to live their lives with-out people being judging pricks about it.

I'm not sure why we need to have put our nose into everyone's business and have an opinion on people's different faith, hobbies, sexuality and so on.

Why should we decide if someone's a freedom fighter or horrible person based on whether they hunt or not, or if they like to watch cartoons about magic ponies or not.

From now on, I'm done judging.

(Except for people who play ingress or enjoy reading the update thread, those will always be horrible.)

[Mr. Illini]

Awful. They have to return to the Faith.

Advice for future discussions on the topic. It would help if you word it as I was planning on wording it.

"I am a practicing Catholic with a Catholic upbringing, and I encourage these people to return to the Church. I know that sometimes things that are done/specific dogma can be frustrating, but the one-on-one relationship with God as well as the guidance of Pope Francis is very rewarding."

[Antonio the Sixth]

Awful. They have to return to the Faith.

Advice for future discussions on the topic. It would help if you word it as I was planning on wording it.

"I am a practicing Catholic with a Catholic upbringing, and I encourage these people to return to the Church. I know that sometimes things that are done/specific dogma can be frustrating, but the one-on-one relationship with God as well as the guidance of Pope Francis is very rewarding."

I certainly prefer your wording to Cathcon's.

Still, I find the idea that one should choose a faith based on how "rewarding" it is (as opposed to choosing it as a result of deeply held beliefs) pretty disturbing. One doesn't "choose" to believe in a particular faith as they choose to buy a particular brand of cereals. One should only choose it if this is what truly fits their inner principles, and this is a decision to be made alone with little to be gained from someone's advice.

Also, I can accept guidance from Pope Francis even as a non-believer who has a lot of esteem and admiration for the person.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

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NOBODY SAID IT DID. IN MINNESOTA. MINNESOTA IS NOT OTHER PLACES. GOOD, WE AGREE.

But in this thread you also have Antonio agreeing with me, from Italy, supposedly one of the biggest "OMG CULTURE" places...

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Amazingly, not everybody from a given place subscribes to the worldview predominant in that place. I'm sure there is at least one non-practicing cultural Catholic who identifies as such in Minneapolis, too. Probably more than one.

Also, reducing the phenomenon that Oakvale was describing up above to just sarcastically saying 'OMG CULTURE!' over and over again is not only shallow but profoundly demeaning to people who do value these things.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

BRTD you do understand the difference between prescription and description, right?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Amazingly, not everybody from a given place subscribes to the worldview predominant in that place. I'm sure there is at least one non-practicing cultural Catholic who identifies as such in Minneapolis, too. Probably more than one.

That's true yes. My point though is that too many act like the non-Minneapolis standard is universal. And if anything upsets this, they get pretty angry about it, even if they aren't Catholic or even culturally Catholic themselves. See for example a certain poster whose name includes a substance that's all over the ground here in Minnesota now...basically if people aren't playing their "roles" it's wrong, or the "OMG CULTURE" thing is favored over personal freedom. Now you can probably understand why I find this repulsive.

Also, reducing the phenomenon that Oakvale was describing up above to just sarcastically saying 'OMG CULTURE!' over and over again is not only shallow but profoundly demeaning to people who do value these things.

Part of the reason is that type of thinking simply does not make ANY sense to me. AT ALL. I simply can't comprehend it. What the f[inks] does "having some vestige of cultural tradition and history" even mean? Like seriously!

Also as I've stated before, in my main social circle there's basically a way of thinking that some liner notes essays have been written about basically stating that cultural traditions you're born into are often what give root to patriarchy, homophobia, and gender oppression, and thus you need to reject all of that and remake yourself as some completely new person to be completely free of those things. Now granted this is a pretty extreme position that hardly everyone believes, but I bet most people in the scene would agree with the more moderate view that such things shouldn't be valued very highly or placed above progressive values, and there's no point in trying to fit yourself as a square peg into a round hole and should just reject any cultures you can't agree with and just choose your values and traditions based solely on what you like. Although this might just be an excuse to basically say "Practice cultural traditions? F[inks] that, I'd rather just get drunk and mosh."

BRTD you do understand the difference between prescription and description, right?

Not in this context.

[patrick1]

Haha, well the scene says this and the scene says that.... next breath OMG Culture.

70k posts of seeing you chase your tail around...and still it shocks me.