What is Peronism?
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  What is Peronism?
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Author Topic: What is Peronism?  (Read 2294 times)
Atlas Has Shrugged
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« on: November 04, 2013, 06:57:49 PM »

Forgive me, as I am ignorant of everything but the basics about Juan Peron. Is Peronism a form of actual fascism, or a separate type of corporatism that is mislabeled as fascism by its opponents? Do the Bolivarians/Pink Tide leaders of today’s South America view it as a reactionary ideology, or do they view it favorably?

I have actually been meaning to check out a biography of Peron from the local library for quite some time. I am currently reading the memoirs of Mao’s physician and also have Robert Mosses and the Fall of New York checked out, so it will be a while before I get around to it. In the meantime, I am interested in learning a little bit more about Peron and Peronism from some posters who might be able to explain it better than Wikipedia.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2013, 06:58:33 PM »

Inexplicable need to sing on balconies?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2013, 07:38:55 PM »

Collective national delusion manifesting itself as some sort of ideology.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2013, 08:17:56 PM »

Peronism is a meaningless term. It has even less meaning than socialism or libertarianism. If a politician calls themselves Peronism, the ONLY thing you can safely conclude is that they're probably from Argentina.

Person himself went through many different phases during his life. He was an Italian style fascist (his admiration for that system remained through his whole life), a socialist in everything but name, and finally a conservative with some nationalist tendencies.
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Sol
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2013, 09:02:57 PM »

God knows, although it seems to me to be some kind of corporatist socialism?
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 10:12:06 PM »

Last question: Is this a good ideology for Snowstalker?
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Sol
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 10:38:55 PM »

Last question: Is this a good ideology for Snowstalker?
Preferable, I suppose.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 12:50:24 AM »

The precursor of Cogendism. Tongue
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 01:30:03 AM »

Last question: Is this a good ideology for Snowstalker?
Preferable, I suppose.


Damn you all. Tongue I was coming in here to recommend that you ask him.
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Redalgo
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2013, 02:16:05 AM »
« Edited: November 05, 2013, 02:30:29 AM by Redalgo »

To generalize a bit, Perónism seems to combine authoritarian government with a corporatist economy, anthropocentrism, fierce nationalism, and realist stances on foreign policy. Though superficially labour-friendly and mistakable for a form of socialism with its emphasis on social justice, Perónism presents a Third Position, class-collaborationist approach while being populist in rhetoric, making appeals (i.e. shamelessly pandering) to the masses. Perónism is basically the Diet Coke of fascism - neither totalitarian nor racist but with that same terrific, jackboot-to-the-face taste! And yes that was really a stretch. Please humour me.

Like many other "social justice" themed movements in lesser-developed countries, Perónism is well-suited for pragmatic leaders who see at least some value in having a strong state, solidarity, and an economy focused on national development (read: for corrupt players who realize the benefits of manipulating party machinery, abusing positions of privilege, and cultivating networks of patrimonial relationships). Even if I were to be less cynical for a moment, at best I can only see the name of Perón being invoked by Argentine parties the way FDR and JFK are by Democrats or as Lincoln and Reagan are by Republicans: as a strategic exertion of influence over voters using potent, tried-and-true symbolic capital.

Or at least for now that is my impression on it all. It'd be lovely if someone from Argentina would post here.
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Velasco
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2013, 03:53:32 AM »

If you go to the Justicialist website, Buenos Aires province section, you'll find what they call the Foundational Documents. They are three, like the Holy Trinity.

1) Comunidad Organizada (Organized Community). It's a pseudo philosophical diatribe by Juan Domingo Perón in 1949.  I guess Chapter XIII summarizes some thoughts of Perón: "Overcoming of the class struggle by social collaboration and human dignification." "Class struggle (...) darkens any hope of human brotherhood". In Chapter XIV ("Revision of hierarchies") criticizes collectivism ("the Hegelian path") and "the omnipotence of State on an infinite sum of zeros".

2) The Argentinian Model for the National Project. It's a sort of political will pronounced after assuming the presidency by the third time. It is a nationalistic allegation against the dangers of "universalization" (what today would come to be the globalization). He blames ideas imported from abroad as the cause of the ill which afflicts the motherland and advocates for a genuinely Argentine route (Peronism, evidently) as the way to protect the economic, territorial and cultural heritage.

3) The 20 Truths. Twenty sentences pronounced by Perón in Plaza de Mayo (1950) summarizing "the ideological matrix of Peronism". One of my favourites is the third, "The Peronist works for the Movement. Whom in its name serve a circle or a caudillo (boss, leader) is only Peronist by name". If we take it literally, nowadays all those who claim to be Peronist are fake. Furthermore, Perón was a clear example of caudillo.

http://www.pjbonaerense.org.ar/Documentos_Fundacionales.aspx

Whatever Peronism means from the ideological point of view (I guess Redalgo's definition is good enough), in the present day the term is quite meaningless. The Justicialist Party -founded as Peronist Party- is virtually dead, just an empty shell. In spite of reunification projects, the party is splitted in several frames. In the last times, the "movement" has mutated, adapting to the times. Menem was, depending on the observer, a "neoliberal" and a "vehicle for the dominant economic group" or the one who created a "vibrant climate for business". The first period of Néstor Kirchner (with Lavagna in Economy) was characterized as "pragmatic leftism", CFdK is said to have evolved to a "populist and fake leftism". In the last election in Buenos Aires province, several Peronist candidates gathered 80% of the vote. The winner was an ambiguosly centrist Golden Boy; the runner-up a mayor backed by La Presidenta, the left-wing faction of the "Movement" and a "Christian Democrat" governor.
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 12:59:22 PM »

a cancer
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 01:10:59 PM »
« Edited: November 06, 2013, 01:18:12 PM by Mynheer Peeperkorn von Thurn und Taxis-Hohenlohe »

Peronism is a system of political pacts between different political actors (presidents, governors, unions, intendents, mayors) along Argentina in order to maintain power. Like the mafia, and I am not being hyperbolic.

Don't try to find an ideology because it doesn't exist. The same people that supported Menem's economic free market agenda now supports Kirchner's protectionist and price-controlled agenda. And the same people will support tomorrow's Massa or whoever wins the election without giving a shink if he goes back to free market liberalism.

If you want to understand Peronism I would recommend you the political scientist Guillermo O'Donnell. And if you want an apologetic but interesting approach concerning kirchnerism, read "The Populist Reason" of Laclau.

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Velasco
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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 03:15:26 PM »

Don't try to find an ideology because it doesn't exist. The same people that supported Menem's economic free market agenda now supports Kirchner's protectionist and price-controlled agenda. And the same people will support tomorrow's Massa or whoever wins the election without giving a shink if he goes back to free market liberalism.

You are forgetting opposition Peronism, FREPASO under Menem and the bunch of franchises of the 'dissident' Peronism. Even when factionalism and personal quarrels play a major role, there is some ideological motivation. Frente Grande (now part of FPV) was created to fight Menem's "neoliberal" and "uncaring" policies. Most of dissident PJ leaders are between moderantism and conservatism.

Anyway, the whole party system in Argentina is broken. Inside and outside PJ is all about personalities (as some people say there "fulanismo/menganismo") 
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 03:40:45 PM »
« Edited: November 06, 2013, 03:47:17 PM by Mynheer Peeperkorn von Thurn und Taxis-Hohenlohe »

90% of FREPASO collapsed with De la Rúa, including Chacho Álvarez (I know he resigned after the implosion, but his political career was finished anyway).

The great majority of today's kirchnerists were menemists, including Kirchner himself.

There are no values or ideology in Argentina's politics. The politicians that try this are sooner or later destroyed by the system, like López Murphy or the orthodox left.
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Velasco
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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2013, 06:12:29 PM »

Oh yes, FREPASO collapsed after 1999 (and UCR, btw). However, a few leaders are still active today, like Aníbal Ibarra. Daniel Filmus was in Ibarra's administration in CABA and Sabbatella was elected in Morón for the first time in the Alliance. Río Grande governor belongs to Frente Grande and that party, together with Communist and Intransigent parties are in the FPV alliance. Pino Solanas was in FREPASO as well (now is in UNEN). However, former Frepasistas are marginal and it's true, most in FPV were with Menem, even when Néstor Kirchner was critic with his policies. The point is that alliance was powerful by 1995 (2nd place in the presidential election and 3rd in the legislative) and was ideologically differentiated of Menem, as 'dissident' Peronists are supposed to defend stances differentiated from those of CFdK. Nowadays slogans and marketing prevail over message. Do you think in the rest of the world is so different? I'd say peculiarities of the Argentinian (or Italian, if you want another example) political system just make some flaws of modern democracies more evident.   

There are no values or ideology in Argentina's politics. The politicians that try this are sooner or later destroyed by the system, like López Murphy or the orthodox left.

Binner tries, though he's weak outside Santa Fe, and Trotskysts made a great election, even winning in Salta City. I'd never say that followers of Leo Trotsky are 'orthodox left', but they have 'values' and 'ideology' and are quite enthusiastic. As for López Murphy, I suppose it's a pity. Likely he'd been preferable to Macri.
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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2013, 06:16:27 PM »

As far as uniquely Argentine concepts go, another one that deserves mention is desarrollismo.
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2013, 08:27:07 PM »

Basically, it's Argentine populism. Aside from that, it's a completely meaningless term.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2013, 12:29:35 AM »

As far as uniquely Argentine concepts go, another one that deserves mention is desarrollismo.

Desarrollismo isn't that unique. It's just a moderate approach to the ISI model (Industrialización por Sustitución de Importaciones, Import substitution industrialization).

Mexico, Brazil (the biggest countries), Uruguay, Argentina and Chile (the most developed contries) tried it. It failed.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2013, 12:31:25 AM »

Basically, it's Argentine populism. Aside from that, it's a completely meaningless term.

Well, define "populism".

It's not that easy.
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Velasco
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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 10:00:24 AM »

As far as uniquely Argentine concepts go, another one that deserves mention is desarrollismo.

Desarrollismo isn't that unique. It's just a moderate approach to the ISI model (Industrialización por Sustitución de Importaciones, Import substitution industrialization).

Mexico, Brazil (the biggest countries), Uruguay, Argentina and Chile (the most developed contries) tried it. It failed.


Arturo Frondizi, the promoter of desarrollismo in Argentina is revered by many politicians in Argentina (López Murphy, Duhalde, Lavagna, Carrió, Macri...) as the last president who had a project for the country. The model failed as a consequence of the 1973 crisis. During the Frondizi tenure (1958-1962), the industrial production and foreign capital investments grew considerably.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2013, 03:45:20 AM »
« Edited: November 09, 2013, 04:04:13 AM by Mynheer Peeperkorn »

As far as uniquely Argentine concepts go, another one that deserves mention is desarrollismo.

Desarrollismo isn't that unique. It's just a moderate approach to the ISI model (Industrialización por Sustitución de Importaciones, Import substitution industrialization).

Mexico, Brazil (the biggest countries), Uruguay, Argentina and Chile (the most developed contries) tried it. It failed.


Arturo Frondizi, the promoter of desarrollismo in Argentina is revered by many politicians in Argentina (López Murphy, Duhalde, Lavagna, Carrió, Macri...) as the last president who had a project for the country. The model failed as a consequence of the 1973 crisis. During the Frondizi tenure (1958-1962), the industrial production and foreign capital investments grew considerably.

a) He is revered because he wasn't explicitly peronist or corrupt.

b) Industrialisation was functional for some years because of a highly protectionist economy. It was also highly subsidized thanks to the good prices of commodities in the international market.

Uruguay had the same policy in the 40s and 50s, and in fact the over-taxation of the rural commodities in order to protect the urban new industries was one of the reasons of the first executive defeat (*) of the social democratic faction of the Colorado Party and the first victory of the National (Blanco) Party (in alliance with the "ruralist" movement) in 60 years of real democracy (1958).

Off topic, know-Uruguay-Attention Whoring:

(*) I say executive election because at that time Uruguay was governed by a National Council (Colegiado) of 9 members, 6 from the first party, 3 from the second party. The President was a rotating position, one member per year.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consejo_Nacional_de_Gobierno

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Council_of_Government_(Uruguay)
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Velasco
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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2013, 12:13:10 PM »


a) He is revered because he wasn't explicitly peronist or corrupt.

Your first point is hardly an argument. Arturo Frondizi is revered by some Peronists as well (I've put you a couple of examples above) and was elected with the support of Perón, who was exiled by that time. The Peronist Movement was banned by the military and the 1958 election was a contest between the two factions in which UCR was divided. Perón withdrew his support to Frondizi due to their differences in allowing foreign investments in order to develop oil extraction in Argentina. Being a very strong nationalist, Perón didn't want the foreign capital.

As for industrialisation, in the context of that time it seems to me that supposed a reasonable alternative to the policies that reactionary elites were promoting, an agricultural and extractive economy dependent on exports and on industrialized powers, UK until the Second WW and USA after. That model (desarrollismo and import substitution) became exhausted, but nowadays in Latin America several countries attempt, with variable success, re-industrialization policies. 

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RodPresident
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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2013, 01:32:18 PM »

Frondizi's MID (Movimiento de Integracion y Desarrollo, Movement for Integration and Development), party that he formed after disagreements with UCRI, supported Campora and Peron in 70's. They were very strong in very distant provinces, like Formosa, Misiones and Santa Cruz. Kirchner got his first mayoral election with their support. Magnetto (Clarin's strongman) was one of their members, linked to Rogelio Frigerio, whose grandson is PRO'S member.
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