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Author Topic: School Vouchers?  (Read 3477 times)
PJ
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« on: November 22, 2013, 09:54:36 PM »

I oppose them. Its not fair for students moving to transition to a completely different curriculum. I also don't want to risk allowing schools to teach creationism.

Begin debating!
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 10:12:03 PM »

Support. Parents (and children who agree with their parents) should be able to choose what kind of schools their children go to easier. It's about choice to me. If there are schools known for teaching creationism, then they shouldn't attend those schools. Education should also be less nationalized then it is now.
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PJ
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 10:23:23 PM »

Support. Parents (and children who agree with their parents) should be able to choose what kind of schools their children go to easier. It's about choice to me. If there are schools known for teaching creationism, then they shouldn't attend those schools. Education should also be less nationalized then it is now.

I do think that people should be able to choose what school they can go to, like the Colorado program, but this shouldn't include charter schools. If we allow schools to teach creationism, the right-wing religious cores will remain uneducated about science issues.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 10:32:24 PM »

Support. Parents (and children who agree with their parents) should be able to choose what kind of schools their children go to easier. It's about choice to me. If there are schools known for teaching creationism, then they shouldn't attend those schools. Education should also be less nationalized then it is now.

I do think that people should be able to choose what school they can go to, like the Colorado program, but this shouldn't include charter schools. If we allow schools to teach creationism, the right-wing religious cores will remain uneducated about science issues.

I do agree with you, I think Evolution should be taught and creationism shouldn't be taught. But that's not my decision, that's the school boards decision. I honestly think teaching creationism is bad form, but I think also that some parents want their children taught creationism, and that's their choice. 

(Plus, the religious right would go crazy if the teachings of creationism were just abolished)
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snowguy716
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 10:40:38 PM »

Support. Parents (and children who agree with their parents) should be able to choose what kind of schools their children go to easier. It's about choice to me. If there are schools known for teaching creationism, then they shouldn't attend those schools. Education should also be less nationalized then it is now.

I do think that people should be able to choose what school they can go to, like the Colorado program, but this shouldn't include charter schools. If we allow schools to teach creationism, the right-wing religious cores will remain uneducated about science issues.

I do agree with you, I think Evolution should be taught and creationism shouldn't be taught. But that's not my decision, that's the school boards decision. I honestly think teaching creationism is bad form, but I think also that some parents want their children taught creationism, and that's their choice. 

(Plus, the religious right would go crazy if the teachings of creationism were just abolished)
That's not the school board's decision.  That's the constitution's decision.  If you want to learn about religion, go to Sunday School.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 10:56:25 PM »

Support. Parents (and children who agree with their parents) should be able to choose what kind of schools their children go to easier. It's about choice to me. If there are schools known for teaching creationism, then they shouldn't attend those schools. Education should also be less nationalized then it is now.

I do think that people should be able to choose what school they can go to, like the Colorado program, but this shouldn't include charter schools. If we allow schools to teach creationism, the right-wing religious cores will remain uneducated about science issues.

I do agree with you, I think Evolution should be taught and creationism shouldn't be taught. But that's not my decision, that's the school boards decision. I honestly think teaching creationism is bad form, but I think also that some parents want their children taught creationism, and that's their choice. 

(Plus, the religious right would go crazy if the teachings of creationism were just abolished)
That's not the school board's decision.  That's the constitution's decision.  If you want to learn about religion, go to Sunday School.

This isn't religion I was referring to here, this was strictly how the universe and man evolved (science). I know that creationism involves God, but its not strictly religion. Obviously religion and education should be separated. We should do something to try to eliminate the teachings of it because it does invoke some religious values, but it should not be thrown out as a theory in science (even if we all think its incorrect).
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RedSLC
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2013, 11:19:51 PM »

Support. Parents (and children who agree with their parents) should be able to choose what kind of schools their children go to easier. It's about choice to me. If there are schools known for teaching creationism, then they shouldn't attend those schools. Education should also be less nationalized then it is now.

I do think that people should be able to choose what school they can go to, like the Colorado program, but this shouldn't include charter schools. If we allow schools to teach creationism, the right-wing religious cores will remain uneducated about science issues.

I do agree with you, I think Evolution should be taught and creationism shouldn't be taught. But that's not my decision, that's the school boards decision. I honestly think teaching creationism is bad form, but I think also that some parents want their children taught creationism, and that's their choice. 

(Plus, the religious right would go crazy if the teachings of creationism were just abolished)
That's not the school board's decision.  That's the constitution's decision.  If you want to learn about religion, go to Sunday School.

This isn't religion I was referring to here, this was strictly how the universe and man evolved (science). I know that creationism involves God, but its not strictly religion. Obviously religion and education should be separated. We should do something to try to eliminate the teachings of it because it does invoke some religious values, but it should not be thrown out as a theory in science (even if we all think its incorrect).

The problem with that, though, is that there really isn't any solid evidence to support creationism as a scientific theory. For it to be of equal standing with evolution, it would need to tested and supported in the same way that evolution has been, which it has not.

Furthermore, a decision by a school board to include intelligent design in the cirriculum was found to violate the establishment clause in the 2005 case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District by a federal district court. Based on this precedent, school boards do not have the authority to do this. Only private schools.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2013, 11:29:23 PM »

I oppose them. Its not fair for students moving to transition to a completely different curriculum.
You realize that school voucher programs would be voluntary, right?

I also don't want to risk allowing schools to teach creationism.
Maybe don't give funds to creationist schools?

Also, how about a poll?
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2013, 11:38:03 PM »

Support. Parents (and children who agree with their parents) should be able to choose what kind of schools their children go to easier. It's about choice to me. If there are schools known for teaching creationism, then they shouldn't attend those schools. Education should also be less nationalized then it is now.

I do think that people should be able to choose what school they can go to, like the Colorado program, but this shouldn't include charter schools. If we allow schools to teach creationism, the right-wing religious cores will remain uneducated about science issues.

I do agree with you, I think Evolution should be taught and creationism shouldn't be taught. But that's not my decision, that's the school boards decision. I honestly think teaching creationism is bad form, but I think also that some parents want their children taught creationism, and that's their choice. 

(Plus, the religious right would go crazy if the teachings of creationism were just abolished)
That's not the school board's decision.  That's the constitution's decision.  If you want to learn about religion, go to Sunday School.

This isn't religion I was referring to here, this was strictly how the universe and man evolved (science). I know that creationism involves God, but its not strictly religion. Obviously religion and education should be separated. We should do something to try to eliminate the teachings of it because it does invoke some religious values, but it should not be thrown out as a theory in science (even if we all think its incorrect).

The problem with that, though, is that there really isn't any solid evidence to support creationism as a scientific theory. For it to be of equal standing with evolution, it would need to tested and supported in the same way that evolution has been, which it has not.

Furthermore, a decision by a school board to include intelligent design in the cirriculum was found to violate the establishment clause in the 2005 case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District by a federal district court. Based on this precedent, school boards do not have the authority to do this. Only private schools.

Well, I realized I made a mistake when I used the word "school board" as If I was referring to a public school. (Oops) I shouldn't of used that, as I was actually referring to the charter and private schools that PJ was talking about. I shouldn't just said "school". But your evidence and argument is credited.
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PJ
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2013, 11:38:24 PM »

I oppose them. Its not fair for students moving to transition to a completely different curriculum.
You realize that school voucher programs would be voluntary, right?

I also don't want to risk allowing schools to teach creationism.
Maybe don't give funds to creationist schools?

Also, how about a poll?
1. Yes, but that doesn't mean it still won't affect people. Parents who believe in vouchers will be inclined to send their child to a voucher school when they move. Even if they decide to move their child from a charter school, that's a drastic change, since other schools will probably not have a similar curriculum. Also, transitioning from a charter school to a regular high school (which does occur in some school districts) is an unavoidable drastic change for charter school students.

2. That's my point. Public schools should not be allowed to teach creationism.

3. The problem with polls is that they usually result in empty quoting.
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Ghost_white
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2013, 11:40:03 PM »

depends on the implementation. anyway, is anyone else here voting for ross perot next year? i'm on the fence personally. clinton vs dole makes me want to sit home
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 11:44:11 PM »

I oppose them. Its not fair for students moving to transition to a completely different curriculum.
You realize that school voucher programs would be voluntary, right?

I also don't want to risk allowing schools to teach creationism.
Maybe don't give funds to creationist schools?

Also, how about a poll?
1. Yes, but that doesn't mean it still won't affect people. Parents who believe in vouchers will be inclined to send their child to a voucher school when they move. Even if they decide to move their child from a charter school, that's a drastic change, since other schools will probably not have a similar curriculum. Also, transitioning from a charter school to a regular high school (which does occur in some school districts) is an unavoidable drastic change for charter school students.

2. That's my point. Public schools should not be allowed to teach creationism.

3. The problem with polls is that they usually result in empty quoting.
1. Using that reasoning, parents wouldn't be allowed to pull their children our of public schools and send them to private ones, or vice versa. Yes, curriculum changes can be hard for kids in the short term, but in the end it's the parent's decision.

2. What I meant was that if you were concerned about creationism being taught in classrooms, simply require schools to meet certain curricular requirements (such as teaching evolution in biology) to receive voucher funds.

3. Fair enough.
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TNF
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2013, 12:01:56 AM »

all private schools should be banned
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PJ
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2013, 12:04:40 AM »

I oppose them. Its not fair for students moving to transition to a completely different curriculum.
You realize that school voucher programs would be voluntary, right?

I also don't want to risk allowing schools to teach creationism.
Maybe don't give funds to creationist schools?

Also, how about a poll?
1. Yes, but that doesn't mean it still won't affect people. Parents who believe in vouchers will be inclined to send their child to a voucher school when they move. Even if they decide to move their child from a charter school, that's a drastic change, since other schools will probably not have a similar curriculum. Also, transitioning from a charter school to a regular high school (which does occur in some school districts) is an unavoidable drastic change for charter school students.

2. That's my point. Public schools should not be allowed to teach creationism.

3. The problem with polls is that they usually result in empty quoting.
1. Using that reasoning, parents wouldn't be allowed to pull their children our of public schools and send them to private ones, or vice versa. Yes, curriculum changes can be hard for kids in the short term, but in the end it's the parent's decision.

2. What I meant was that if you were concerned about creationism being taught in classrooms, simply require schools to meet certain curricular requirements (such as teaching evolution in biology) to receive voucher funds.

3. Fair enough.
1. It doesn't necessarily last short term. If School 1 teaches a certain class in 9th grade while school 2 teaches that same class in 8th grade, and a student moves from school 1 to school 2 between 8th and 9th grade, they will miss out on that certain class. I don't necessarily approve of private schools either, but I think we need to make public schools successful enough in education to make private schools unpopular. I don't think we should ban them.

2. While creationism is the thing I disagree with the most about unregulated charter academies, I don't approve of any schools having differentiated curriculums. Why should a student in New York and a student in Oregon be offered different opportunities in education because of the political opinions of their region? I don't see what's fair about that.

Explanation?
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TNF
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2013, 12:10:50 AM »

The rich shouldn't be able to buy their kids a better education.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2013, 12:14:46 AM »

Bad idea.

1.  Public money shouldn't fund religious instruction.

2.  Public money shouldn't fund schools that essentially discriminate by maintain religious missions and competitive admissions.  The idea of public education is that everyone can get an education regardless of who they are. 

3.  Private and even charter schools in poor neighborhoods ultimately just hurt the neighborhood schools by filtering the more involved parents and high-performing students out of the system.   
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PJ
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2013, 12:19:02 AM »

The rich shouldn't be able to buy their kids a better education.
Why not just improve public education to make it better than private education?
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TNF
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2013, 12:23:54 AM »

The rich shouldn't be able to buy their kids a better education.
Why not just improve public education to make it better than private education?

The point is that as long as the rich are allowed to buy their kids a better education, they're going to use that right. You can improve public education all you want, but so long as the rich can opt out of the system, it's going to be at a disadvantage and the wealthy are going to be able to perpetuate income inequality.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2013, 12:32:27 AM »

I oppose them. Its not fair for students moving to transition to a completely different curriculum.
You realize that school voucher programs would be voluntary, right?

I also don't want to risk allowing schools to teach creationism.
Maybe don't give funds to creationist schools?

Also, how about a poll?
1. Yes, but that doesn't mean it still won't affect people. Parents who believe in vouchers will be inclined to send their child to a voucher school when they move. Even if they decide to move their child from a charter school, that's a drastic change, since other schools will probably not have a similar curriculum. Also, transitioning from a charter school to a regular high school (which does occur in some school districts) is an unavoidable drastic change for charter school students.

2. That's my point. Public schools should not be allowed to teach creationism.

3. The problem with polls is that they usually result in empty quoting.
1. Using that reasoning, parents wouldn't be allowed to pull their children our of public schools and send them to private ones, or vice versa. Yes, curriculum changes can be hard for kids in the short term, but in the end it's the parent's decision.

2. What I meant was that if you were concerned about creationism being taught in classrooms, simply require schools to meet certain curricular requirements (such as teaching evolution in biology) to receive voucher funds.

3. Fair enough.
1. It doesn't necessarily last short term. If School 1 teaches a certain class in 9th grade while school 2 teaches that same class in 8th grade, and a student moves from school 1 to school 2 between 8th and 9th grade, they will miss out on that certain class. I don't necessarily approve of private schools either, but I think we need to make public schools successful enough in education to make private schools unpopular. I don't think we should ban them.

2. While creationism is the thing I disagree with the most about unregulated charter academies, I don't approve of any schools having differentiated curriculums. Why should a student in New York and a student in Oregon be offered different opportunities in education because of the political opinions of their region? I don't see what's fair about that.

Explanation?
1. I suppose there's an argument to be made for a universal, one-size-fits-all curriculum in that it is more comfortable for students who have to transfer schools, but I think in the end too many universal education mandates only succeed in harming students by decreasing that number of educational opportunities out there and by trying to apply an overly simplistic approach to the many unique situations students face. Many of our current ones certainly do. And anyway, any standards that you think need to be met could simply be prerequisites for receiving voucher funding.

2. First off, I think you might be confusing charter schools with private ones. I certainly haven't heard of any charter school that taught creationism (of course, if you can provide me with evidence, I'll acknowledge that there are).  But to the point, if you truly believe that a large number of universal curriculum standards are necessary, those could easily be prerequisites for voucher funding.
 
As for TNF, I think he opposes private ownership of anything but guns.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2013, 12:32:47 AM »

I oppose them. Its not fair for students moving to transition to a completely different curriculum.
You realize that school voucher programs would be voluntary, right?

I also don't want to risk allowing schools to teach creationism.
Maybe don't give funds to creationist schools?

Also, how about a poll?
Vouchers would be hard in my state because of this in the state constitution:

Section 1. Uniform system of public schools.
The stability of a republican form of government depending mainly upon the intelligence of the people, it is the duty of the legislature to establish a general and uniform system of public schools. The legislature shall make such provisions by taxation or otherwise as will secure a thorough and efficient system of public schools throughout the state.

Sec. 2. Prohibition as to aiding sectarian school.
In no case shall any public money or property be appropriated or used for the support of schools wherein the distinctive doctrines, creeds or tenets of any particular Christian or other religious sect are promulgated or taught.

The good people of my state had the foresight in 1858 to put a stop to this voucher BS.
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dead0man
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2013, 12:34:04 AM »

3.  Private and even charter schools in poor neighborhoods ultimately just hurt the neighborhood schools by filtering the more involved parents and high-performing students out of the system.
yeah, how dare those poor people want to improve their lives!  They should be stuck just like the parents and kids that don't care!
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bedstuy
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2013, 12:34:41 AM »

The rich shouldn't be able to buy their kids a better education.
Why not just improve public education to make it better than private education?

The point is that as long as the rich are allowed to buy their kids a better education, they're going to use that right. You can improve public education all you want, but so long as the rich can opt out of the system, it's going to be at a disadvantage and the wealthy are going to be able to perpetuate income inequality.

I don't really think that's the problem when it comes to income inequality. 

I went from an ordinary public high school to an elite east coast university full of prep school kids from Phillips Andover and such.  They had no leg up on me in terms of academics.  Richies pretty much use private schools so their kids can meet each other and perform a bunch of homoerotic rituals or whatever.  If it wasn't high school, rich people would just find some other marker of wealth and importance to waste thousands of dollars on.   
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2013, 12:34:47 AM »

Bad idea.

1.  Public money shouldn't fund religious instruction.

2.  Public money shouldn't fund schools that essentially discriminate by maintain religious missions and competitive admissions.  The idea of public education is that everyone can get an education regardless of who they are. 

3.  Private and even charter schools in poor neighborhoods ultimately just hurt the neighborhood schools by filtering the more involved parents and high-performing students out of the system.   
To clarify, you think that public schools with competitive admissions processes should be closed, or at least be required to alter those processes?
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bedstuy
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2013, 12:41:44 AM »

Bad idea.

1.  Public money shouldn't fund religious instruction.

2.  Public money shouldn't fund schools that essentially discriminate by maintain religious missions and competitive admissions.  The idea of public education is that everyone can get an education regardless of who they are. 

3.  Private and even charter schools in poor neighborhoods ultimately just hurt the neighborhood schools by filtering the more involved parents and high-performing students out of the system.   
To clarify, you think that public schools with competitive admissions processes should be closed, or at least be required to alter those processes?

I would support only having neighborhood schools except for students with special educational needs or circumstances.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2013, 12:45:13 AM »

The rich shouldn't be able to buy their kids a better education.
Why not just improve public education to make it better than private education?

The point is that as long as the rich are allowed to buy their kids a better education, they're going to use that right. You can improve public education all you want, but so long as the rich can opt out of the system, it's going to be at a disadvantage and the wealthy are going to be able to perpetuate income inequality.

I don't really think that's the problem when it comes to income inequality. 

I went from an ordinary public high school to an elite east coast university full of prep school kids from Phillips Andover and such.  They had no leg up on me in terms of academics.  Richies pretty much use private schools so their kids can meet each other and perform a bunch of homoerotic rituals or whatever.  If it wasn't high school, rich people would just find some other marker of wealth and importance to waste thousands of dollars on.   
I think you're overgeneralizing private schools. They're not all Choate-Rosemary, you know.
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