Is Islam Compatible With Democracy?

[Frodo]

And by 'democracy', I am referring to representative democracy.

The Bush administration has made it its stated goal (and laudably so, if it can be taken at its word) to bring about a democratic revolution throughout the Middle East, for only by doing so can we effectively 'drain the swamp' of Islamic extremism that fosters transnational terrorism.  Thus, we strike at the very root of the festering wound that is the continued existence of repressive regimes throughout the Middle East, which has contributed to the lack of democratic institutions that allows the people to have an avenue through which to have some say in who governs them.  Such a desire for freedom is universal among ordinary Muslims, as we have seen in the Lebanese Cedar Revolution.

Yet, the region as a whole is also devoutly Muslim, and has expressed a desire to find some way to marry Islam and representative democracy together so as to make the latter more compatible with their culture.  They will not have it be any other way. 

As you all look at the articles I present on this subject below, do you all think it is possible that such a compromise can be reached between these two forces shaping and reshaping the Middle East? 

__________________________________________________
From the Christian Science Monitor from two years ago:

Easing into Islamic democracy

Convinced by their experience in the US, American Muslims are helping form democratic coalitions in the Muslim world and are building their case on Islamic principles.

By Jane Lampman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
from the United States Institute of Peace:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0529/p12s02-lire.html
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From the United States Institute of Peace:

SPECIAL REPORT 93
Islam and Democracy

http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr93.html
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And an Al Jazeera special report on the same subject:

In pursuit of Arab reform

This special report is concerned with the increasingly pressing demand for reform in the Middle East. While few harbour any illusions over the need for such a compelling change, the disagreement centres on the question: How?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/967715B8-276C-4708-AC08-7FD102E13BA7.htm

[dazzleman]

Fundamentalist Islam is not compatible with democracy.

But I think Islam can adapt and be compatible with democracy, just as Christianity did.

Keep in mind that Islam is 400-500 years newer than Christianity.  Where was Christianity 500 years ago?  In the midst of the crusades, in its own fundamentalist period.

Islam is far more primitive than Christianity because it is less developed.  The president is looking to give it a big push, because nuclear weapons did not exist during the Christian crusades.  Islam needs to be brought into the modern world, and I think the president's policy is ambitious and laudible.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There are two Muslim M.P's in the U.K (one in Birmingham, one in Glasgow). After the next election there will be at least one more, maybe two or three more.

[phk]

Reforming Islam to be compatible with democracy is not something that a Muslim would ever consider.

Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with the Islamic world is in its inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.   

History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all these attempts have failed, and Islam is now in the darkest phase of its existence.

As a matter of fact, every time Islam is taken into equation, even nominally, for a social change, the result is catastrophic because the gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other consideration.

The Quran cannot be interpreted or reformed. The will of God cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct challenge to its authority and would invalidate the entire faith.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No it is not. All Muslim countries need secular regimes.

[John Dibble]

No it is not. All Muslim countries need secular regimes.

Right, which is why Iraq was such a paradise...oh, wait.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Saddam wasn't the prime example of what I wanted. He was far too brutal.

Egypt and Iran under the Shah are good examples, although I would've supported the Shah's overthrow without the benefit of hindsight and not knowing who would've come out at the top after the revolution. Oh well.

[phk]

Saddam wasn't the prime example of what I wanted. He was far too brutal.

Egypt and Iran under the Shah are good examples, although I would've supported the Shah's overthrow without the benefit of hindsight and not knowing who would've come out at the top after the revolution. Oh well.

The Islamists knocked off the Leftists once it gained traction.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

yes, that was very unfortunate. The Leftists should've never trusted the Islamists.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Like I've said many times, the only Islamic countries that pulled off democracy succesfully are those that drove Islam into the ground. And even in those cases, the democracy is rather weak at best. Take Turkey for example. They had to have Ataturk modernize the country, and even now they have a two party system using PR due to a ridiculously high threshhold of 10% (I'm sure you can all figure why it's so high), and horrendous treatment of ethnic minorities and media censorship.

[Frodo]

Reforming Islam to be compatible with democracy is not something that a Muslim would ever consider.

Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with the Islamic world is in its inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.   

History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all these attempts have failed, and Islam is now in the darkest phase of its existence.

As a matter of fact, every time Islam is taken into equation, even nominally, for a social change, the result is catastrophic because the gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other consideration.

The Quran cannot be interpreted or reformed. The will of God cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct challenge to its authority and would invalidate the entire faith.

So what is your solution?  Or is there any?

[phk]

Reforming Islam to be compatible with democracy is not something that a Muslim would ever consider.

Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with the Islamic world is in its inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.   

History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all these attempts have failed, and Islam is now in the darkest phase of its existence.

As a matter of fact, every time Islam is taken into equation, even nominally, for a social change, the result is catastrophic because the gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other consideration.

The Quran cannot be interpreted or reformed. The will of God cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct challenge to its authority and would invalidate the entire faith.

So what is your solution?  Or is there any?

The solution has to come from them, [Muslims].

You can take a thirsty man to a lake, but he has to drink the water for himself.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

fundamentalist islam no

[Gabu]

Remember that time when anyone going against the Church was burned for being a heretic?  Yeah, I wouldn't exactly call Christianity all that compatible with the notion of democracy at that time, either.

Sure you have Muslims who want to integrate Islam into any possible democracy, but right in America you have tons of Christians who want to integrate Christianity into the government - or those who say that it's already there.  Could a non-Christian get elected to any prominent office in America?  No, I didn't think so.  Therefore, I don't see why it's such a bad thing that a non-Muslim couldn't get elected to any prominent office in a Muslim-dominated country.  At the very least, to have any democracy at all is a good start.

I don't think Islam is any more incompatible with democracy than Christianity is, really.  A religion is what its believers make of it - to paraphrase something Mohammed once said.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There are two Muslim M.P's in the U.K (one in Birmingham, one in Glasgow). After the next election there will be at least one more, maybe two or three more.

We now have four; Mohammed Sarwar (Glasgow Central), Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham Perry Barr), Shahid Malik (Dewsbury, WR Yorks) and Sadiq Khan (Tooting).
All Pakistanis, All Labour.
Malik has been one of the best M.P's of the new intake (for any party) IMO. Him and Mahmood have become quite high profile of late.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Could a non-Christian get elected to any prominent office in America?  No, I didn't think so.

Do you consider the US Senate prominent? It's got at least 9 Jews. Not to mention in 2000 a Jew was legitimately elected Vice President.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Yes but the US has historically been friendly to jewish people so that's not a good comparison. Now if an atheist got elected POTUS in the US...

[phk]

There are two Muslim M.P's in the U.K (one in Birmingham, one in Glasgow). After the next election there will be at least one more, maybe two or three more.

We now have four; Mohammed Sarwar (Glasgow Central), Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham Perry Barr), Shahid Malik (Dewsbury, WR Yorks) and Sadiq Khan (Tooting).
All Pakistanis, All Labour.
Malik has been one of the best M.P's of the new intake (for any party) IMO. Him and Mahmood have become quite high profile of late.

Isn't there a Kashmiri Pakistani in the House of Lords, I saw him talk on BBC during the bombing mess.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There are two Muslim M.P's in the U.K (one in Birmingham, one in Glasgow). After the next election there will be at least one more, maybe two or three more.

We now have four; Mohammed Sarwar (Glasgow Central), Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham Perry Barr), Shahid Malik (Dewsbury, WR Yorks) and Sadiq Khan (Tooting).
All Pakistanis, All Labour.
Malik has been one of the best M.P's of the new intake (for any party) IMO. Him and Mahmood have become quite high profile of late.

Isn't there a Kashmiri Pakistani in the House of Lords, I saw him talk on BBC during the bombing mess.

Yep; Lord [Nazir] Ahmed of Rotherham.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

islam may or not be compatible with democracy but I still don't want any muslims coming into the US.

[MODU]

I say yes, Islam is compatible, just as Judaism and Christianity.  They just need to work out a model of democracy for Islam through compromise.

[Frodo]

islam may or not be compatible with democracy but I still don't want any muslims coming into the US.

They're already here -what are you proposing to do about it?

[Gustaf]

Remember that time when anyone going against the Church was burned for being a heretic?  Yeah, I wouldn't exactly call Christianity all that compatible with the notion of democracy at that time, either.

Sure you have Muslims who want to integrate Islam into any possible democracy, but right in America you have tons of Christians who want to integrate Christianity into the government - or those who say that it's already there.  Could a non-Christian get elected to any prominent office in America?  No, I didn't think so.  Therefore, I don't see why it's such a bad thing that a non-Muslim couldn't get elected to any prominent office in a Muslim-dominated country.  At the very least, to have any democracy at all is a good start.

I don't think Islam is any more incompatible with democracy than Christianity is, really.  A religion is what its believers make of it - to paraphrase something Mohammed once said.

This was prety much my thoughts as well...that being said, they probably have some way left to go before they can have a modern democracy. But that mostly go nothing to do with Islam and more with tribal traditions, war-scarred history, etc.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

islam may or not be compatible with democracy but I still don't want any muslims coming into the US.

They're already here -what are you proposing to do about it?

don't let in any wahbist extremists.