Your Brain on Poverty: Why Poor People Seem to Make Bad Decisions

[Beet]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

An accurate article, IMO.

[Mechaman]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

An accurate article, IMO.

Yes and not at all surprising, given that American politicians have largely given up on the poor.  Well, except for every two years or so when they can use them as campaign props to give the image of "caring".

[Franzl]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

An accurate article, IMO.

Yes and not at all surprising, given that American politicians have largely given up on the poor.  Well, except for every two years or so when they can use them as campaign props to give the image of "caring".

When do American politicians ever talk about the poor? It's always about "the middle class".

[LastVoter]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

An accurate article, IMO.

Yes and not at all surprising, given that American politicians have largely given up on the poor.  Well, except for every two years or so when they can use them as campaign props to give the image of "caring".

When do American politicians ever talk about the poor? It's always about "the middle class".

So poor?

[Indy Texas]

I love how everyone in the comment section on the article completely miss the point.


Classic rich and middle class people who have never faced financial hardship feeling qualified to judge the less well - off. Makes me want to go opebo sometimes.

When I was in high school, we had an Angel Tree at Christmas where the children of the janitorial staff (who were basically all Central American immigrants) could "wish" for certain Christmas presents and then if you wanted to be their "Christmas Angel" you took their tag off the tree, bought and wrapped the present and dropped it off in a bin at school.

Most people were very enthusiastic about it, but there were some people who basically said things to the effect of, "They already get paid to do their jobs...why should we buy their Christmas presents for them too? This is the problem with poor people - they just want everything handed to them and that's why their poor!" or "Well if they can't afford to buy Christmas presents then why don't they just, like, get a different job that pays better?"

[King]

You do what you can to survive.

[DC Al Fine]

The comment about doing stuff to feel worthwhile hit home. I've noticed that wealthier people seem more comfortable doing "cheap" things than poor people. Ex: Buying clothes in a thrift shop is "chic" There was a survey done a couple years ago that indicated that poorer parents spend more money on prom than richer parents. Not more as a % of their income; more in absolute terms.

This suggests that whether you feel you have control over your future plays a role in whether you will make good long term decisions. A wealthier person who hasn't struggled thinks nothing of maxing out their 401k or buying used clothes or not buying their kid the latest video game. They feel their sacrifice will pay off in the future, so why not make it? Contrast this with the poorer person who thinks they're always going to be poor. If they think their sacrifices won't payoff, why sacrifice?

This also has some good policy implications. We should make certain incentives aimed at the poor more immediate. The EITC is a good program, but expanding it won't affect people's behaviour. Ross Douthat once said something like "Poor young men don't need to hear they'll get a bunch of money if they find a job, work for a year and fill out the proper paper work at tax time; they need to hear that Home depot is hiring at $10/hr".

[Indy Texas]

The comment about doing stuff to feel worthwhile hit home. I've noticed that wealthier people seem more comfortable doing "cheap" things than poor people. Ex: Buying clothes in a thrift shop is "chic" There was a survey done a couple years ago that indicated that poorer parents spend more money on prom than richer parents. Not more as a % of their income; more in absolute terms.

This suggests that whether you feel you have control over your future plays a role in whether you will make good long term decisions. A wealthier person who hasn't struggled thinks nothing of maxing out their 401k or buying used clothes or not buying their kid the latest video game. They feel their sacrifice will pay off in the future, so why not make it? Contrast this with the poorer person who thinks they're always going to be poor. If they think their sacrifices won't payoff, why sacrifice?

This also has some good policy implications. We should make certain incentives aimed at the poor more immediate. The EITC is a good program, but expanding it won't affect people's behaviour. Ross Douthat once said something like "Poor young men don't need to hear they'll get a bunch of money if they find a job, work for a year and fill out the proper paper work at tax time; they need to hear that Home depot is hiring at $10/hr".

Considering holiday shopping is upon us, it makes me think about how every year on Black Friday there's always the predictable news story about someone getting shot or tramped to death at Wal-Mart or the mall and the culprit is inevitably some poorly behaved African-American individual attempting to purchase Air Jordans/XBox/etc for their child/grandchild/nephew/whatnot. And my aunt will make some snarky comment about how if they didn't blow all their money on flashy crap they'd be better off.

Here in Texas, the quinceañera tradition is often criticized by conservative Anglos as evidence that poor Hispanics are poor because they spend so much money on their daughters' 15th birthday parties rather than using it to save for college or pay down personal debts. But in the context of their daughter's likely prospects - having her first child before she's 20, working low-wage retail jobs to make ends meet, divorce from a husband or separation from a boyfriend - is it really so unreasonable to want her to feel like a "princess" once in her life?

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

The comment about doing stuff to feel worthwhile hit home. I've noticed that wealthier people seem more comfortable doing "cheap" things than poor people. Ex: Buying clothes in a thrift shop is "chic" There was a survey done a couple years ago that indicated that poorer parents spend more money on prom than richer parents. Not more as a % of their income; more in absolute terms.

This suggests that whether you feel you have control over your future plays a role in whether you will make good long term decisions. A wealthier person who hasn't struggled thinks nothing of maxing out their 401k or buying used clothes or not buying their kid the latest video game. They feel their sacrifice will pay off in the future, so why not make it? Contrast this with the poorer person who thinks they're always going to be poor. If they think their sacrifices won't payoff, why sacrifice?

As a cashier at a charity-run thrift store, you're absolutely on point.

Many of the poorer people from the north of Munster, Hammond, EC, or Gary(we ask everyone for their ZIP code for advertising purposes) seem as if they're in a rush to get in, get their stuff, and get out before anyone sees them, while the more well-off from Munster, Highland, Dyer, etc. seem happy to be there, happy to save a buck, and make good conversation.

Their spending choices and social attitude definitely clicked with the article in my mind.

But I've always been taught that moochers have no shame.

[Redalgo]

My takeaway from this is basically that, though everyone seeks to meet all their needs in life to be happy and generally satisfied, those most insecure in their ability to meet those needs must set priorities (e.g. try to live well in the moment to make the best of a seemingly inescapable, grim predicament in the long term). The so-called Culture of Poverty is a reasonable response to the conditions in which they've been placed.

That is not to say the poor are absolved of all responsibility to help themselves. Rather, I reckon people should recognize this problem is exacerbated by the current economic order - that it's part of the price we pay as a society to make capitalism work.

@Franzl: Yes - both major U.S. parties are classist and neither focuses on the interests of the poor.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

But I've always been taught that moochers have no shame.

Clearly you've had the same rotten teachers that krazen had.  Were you ever in the same class together?

[courts]

i feel dumber having read this

[pbrower2a]

Poverty in America means fewer choices -- starker ones, often between degrading, destructive, and dehumanizing results. The rhetoric about "one percent" and "ninety-nine percent" reflects that the one percent see themselves deserving of everything and that the other ninety-nine exist at their whim -- at least by right.

If there are no good decisions, then one surely makes bad ones. At the extreme one could have "steal or starve".

Truth be told, the working poor get a raw deal in every aspect of life. They get too little pay to save anything. They work for little and have huge expenses. I can imagine what happens in the end -- they die before their time, at least as trends go. When one is worn out the Master Class no longer needs one.   

[memphis]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

An accurate article, IMO.

Yes and not at all surprising, given that American politicians have largely given up on the poor.  Well, except for every two years or so when they can use them as campaign props to give the image of "caring".

When do American politicians ever talk about the poor? It's always about "the middle class".

In 1965.

[minionofmidas]

The comment about doing stuff to feel worthwhile hit home. I've noticed that wealthier people seem more comfortable doing "cheap" things than poor people. Ex: Buying clothes in a thrift shop is "chic" There was a survey done a couple years ago that indicated that poorer parents spend more money on prom than richer parents. Not more as a % of their income; more in absolute terms.

This suggests that whether you feel you have control over your future plays a role in whether you will make good long term decisions. A wealthier person who hasn't struggled thinks nothing of maxing out their 401k or buying used clothes or not buying their kid the latest video game. They feel their sacrifice will pay off in the future, so why not make it? Contrast this with the poorer person who thinks they're always going to be poor. If they think their sacrifices won't payoff, why sacrifice?

As a cashier at a charity-run thrift store, you're absolutely on point.

Many of the poorer people from the north of Munster, Hammond, EC, or Gary(we ask everyone for their ZIP code for advertising purposes) seem as if they're in a rush to get in, get their stuff, and get out before anyone sees them, while the more well-off from Munster, Highland, Dyer, etc. seem happy to be there, happy to save a buck, and make good conversation.

Their spending choices and social attitude definitely clicked with the article in my mind.

But I've always been taught that moochers have no shame.

Well, obviously only those who shop there without needing to can semi-reasonably be described as moochers, so of course they're the only ones to whom the stereotype applies.

[courts]

Poverty in America means fewer choices -- starker ones, often between degrading, destructive, and dehumanizing results. The rhetoric about "one percent" and "ninety-nine percent" reflects that the one percent see themselves deserving of everything and that the other ninety-nine exist at their whim -- at least by right.

If there are no good decisions, then one surely makes bad ones. At the extreme one could have "steal or starve".

Truth be told, the working poor get a raw deal in every aspect of life. They get too little pay to save anything. They work for little and have huge expenses. I can imagine what happens in the end -- they die before their time, at least as trends go. When one is worn out the Master Class no longer needs one.   

i liked this better when snowstalker said it

[memphis]

Everybody makes bad decisions all the time. Poor people. Rich people. Young people. Old people. Point fingers all you want, we all do it. I've certainly met my quota. Poor people have less room for error though. That's what money's all about, when you stop and think. It lets you choose poorly.

[DC Al Fine]

The comment about doing stuff to feel worthwhile hit home. I've noticed that wealthier people seem more comfortable doing "cheap" things than poor people. Ex: Buying clothes in a thrift shop is "chic" There was a survey done a couple years ago that indicated that poorer parents spend more money on prom than richer parents. Not more as a % of their income; more in absolute terms.

This suggests that whether you feel you have control over your future plays a role in whether you will make good long term decisions. A wealthier person who hasn't struggled thinks nothing of maxing out their 401k or buying used clothes or not buying their kid the latest video game. They feel their sacrifice will pay off in the future, so why not make it? Contrast this with the poorer person who thinks they're always going to be poor. If they think their sacrifices won't payoff, why sacrifice?

This also has some good policy implications. We should make certain incentives aimed at the poor more immediate. The EITC is a good program, but expanding it won't affect people's behaviour. Ross Douthat once said something like "Poor young men don't need to hear they'll get a bunch of money if they find a job, work for a year and fill out the proper paper work at tax time; they need to hear that Home depot is hiring at $10/hr".

Here in Texas, the quinceañera tradition is often criticized by conservative Anglos as evidence that poor Hispanics are poor because they spend so much money on their daughters' 15th birthday parties rather than using it to save for college or pay down personal debts. But in the context of their daughter's likely prospects - having her first child before she's 20, working low-wage retail jobs to make ends meet, divorce from a husband or separation from a boyfriend - is it really so unreasonable to want her to feel like a "princess" once in her life?

A dour Calvinist is probably the wrong person to ask

I'm not that familiar with quinceañera, but I've heard of cases where the family goes into debt to pay for one. Not every dollar has to go to improving net worth, but I'd seriously question the parent who makes the situation worse for one party. The same goes for college education. I'm under no delusions of working class Hispanic girls becoming engineers en masse, but a lot of them are certainly capable of moving up the economic ladder a bit. If quinceañera money is preventing someone from going to community college to become a mechanic, LPN, etc, the family's making a bad decision.

I guess it comes down to the family's situation. If they aren't making their situation worse and the party isn't precluding furthering one's education, there's no problem with having a big party. Economic mobility isn't all it's cracked up to be, but a lot of poors do have some prospects, so long as they avoid any major bad decisions.

On another note, it's really depressing that we can talk about expecting someone to have an out of wedlock child by 20. I know it's true, but man its sad.

[angus]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

An accurate article, IMO.

The psychology of poverty has been written about quite a bit.  They were teaching this back in the late 80s when I was in school.  The anecdote in your article concludes with "You just take what you can get as you spot it."  I remember my freshman sociology teacher talking about "instant gratification" and how it was a hallmark of the lower social classes. 

To be honest, I think there's more to it than that.  There are physical and logistical reasons, which outweigh the psychological ones, for making decisions that would seem "bad" to others:  For example, if you only have one bowl, then it's the one you eat rice from, and it's the one you put mercury in when you pan for gold, and it's the one you defecate in.  Then, at the end of the day you eat out of the contaminated bowl again.  All that mercury and shit is bad for you, and it will limit your lifespan and intellectual potential, but when you're still at the base of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, you can't be bothered with things like self-actualization.  Similarly, if your village has only one well for water, then that's where you get your water, whether it's contaminated or not.  Maybe you send your seven children to scavenge from the garbage heaps which contain all sorts of chemical and biological waste not because you think it's a good idea, but because once in a while one of them brings a bit of uneaten food back to the hut.  Short-term subsistence in the regions of deepest poverty dictates actions even more so than the psychology of poverty.  It's easy for me to say, "don't go outside barefoot" to my child.  After all, he has at least 20 pairs of shoes, if you include snowboots, sneakers, dress shoes, sandals, and waterwear.  When you don't have a pair of shoes to give your child, and no land to farm, and no livestock to slaughter, then it isn't necessarily a bad decision to have him climb upon the refuse pile--or wander through a field that was mined during the last civil war--barefoot in order to find today's meal.  Perhaps one loses a leg, but the other six get to eat another day.

[opebo]

But I've always been taught that moochers have no shame.

Precisely correct - they feel entitled.  We're talking about the rich, right? 

Makes me want to go opebo...

I resoundingly endorse this phrase!

[IceSpear]

Is this why poor Appalachians vote Republican?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I love how everyone in the comment section on the article completely miss the point.


Classic rich and middle class people who have never faced financial hardship feeling qualified to judge the less well - off. Makes me want to go opebo sometimes.

I know that feel. I recall circa 2009 reading an article on Yahoo finance where someone said the recession was actually a good thing because it meant that one could actually get quality service at the coffee shop for a change. Yea, where did I put that barbed wire...