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Author Topic: WI: Senator Kerry Killed  (Read 13772 times)
Archangel_Mikey
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« on: March 12, 2005, 03:19:04 pm »
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WI Senator John Kerry had been assassinated, died of natural causes, or died in some way about a month before the presidential election?
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2005, 02:06:42 am »
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I think both sides would back off campaigning for a few days, Edwards would select Clark as his running mate and sympathy for the Dems allows the Dems to cruise to victory.


Edwards/Clark--56% 386 EV
Bush/Cheney--43% 152 EV
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2005, 02:58:28 am »
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I think both sides would back off campaigning for a few days, Edwards would select Clark as his running mate and sympathy for the Dems allows the Dems to cruise to victory.


Edwards/Clark--56% 386 EV
Bush/Cheney--43% 152 EV

Why?  No one gave a sh**t about John Kerry.  With the top of the ticket gone, there would be no one left to vote for.  If Edwards wouldn't lose votes, he sure as Hell wouldn't gain any either.

Sympathy votes only work for incumbents, either way.
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frenger
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2005, 04:46:31 am »
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The dems would pull a Pym Fortuin.
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2005, 11:18:03 pm »
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I think both sides would back off campaigning for a few days, Edwards would select Clark as his running mate and sympathy for the Dems allows the Dems to cruise to victory.


Edwards/Clark--56% 386 EV
Bush/Cheney--43% 152 EV

Why? No one gave a sh**t about John Kerry. With the top of the ticket gone, there would be no one left to vote for. If Edwards wouldn't lose votes, he sure as Hell wouldn't gain any either.

Sympathy votes only work for incumbents, either way.

Hmm, must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today, Chris...

Plenty of people cared about Kerry, and did vote for him, not just against Bush, if that's what you are suggesting.

I also think that in retrospect, Edwards would have done better than Kerry. More appeal to moderates and populist voters. I think Edwards would have carried  Ohio.

Of course, his lack of experience would have played against him, though exactly how much, it's hard to say.

And sympathy votes most certainly do work for the challenger. Case in point: the 2000 Missouri Senate race.
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2005, 11:26:34 pm »
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The democrats would pull a Wellstone, they would totally hype it to the point where it's distastefull.

Pulling a Wellstone and hyping it the way MN Dems did didn't just make it distasteful. There are some things that are distasteful, people voice their opposition to it and move on. Wellstone hype was so distasteful that it actually caused Coleman to win.
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2005, 01:01:40 am »
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Acctually, political analysts who were watching the race said that Coleman had a pretty good shot anyway and was polling close to Wellstone.  People in Minnesota liked Wellstone, but he had broken several of his key promises from the first time he ran.

1) I will never run a negative campaign.

Which is what he did against Coleman.

2) I will not run for a third term.

He was running for his third term.

3) I forget what the exact sum was, but he said he would never raise more than a certain amount of money.

He raised and spent nearly twice that against Coleman.
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2005, 09:46:06 am »
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Whie I agree with nini2287 that the probable ticket would be Edwards/Clark, I don't hold as rosy a view of its impact:



Edwards/Clark 289 EV 50.4%PV
Bush/Cheney 269 EV 48.5%PV
Nader/Camejo 0 EV 0.5%PV (a slight increase from what happened)

Anything more than that would require something like one of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth being the assassin to affect the election by more than this.

However the down ticket effect would also be significant with Knowles, Castor, Mongiardo, Bowles, and  Daschle all winning their Senate seats, causing the Senate to be split evenly, but switching over to the Democratic control when Vice President Clark is sworn in.  In the House the Dems only pick up 3 seats comapared to what happened due tio the fact that the sympathy doesn't resonate down the ticket that far and there were so few close House races to begin with.
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2005, 05:53:07 pm »
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The democrats would pull a Wellstone, they would totally hype it to the point where it's distastefull.

Pulling a Wellstone and hyping it the way MN Dems did didn't just make it distasteful. There are some things that are distasteful, people voice their opposition to it and move on. Wellstone hype was so distasteful that it actually caused Coleman to win.

You mean the Wellstone funeral was distasteful?

Nym, Carnahan had been an incumbent Governor, so the people had liked him and voted for him before. Kerry didn't mean as much to Wisconsoners or Iowans as Carnahan did to Missourans.
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2005, 07:27:28 pm »
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Acctually, political analysts who were watching the race said that Coleman had a pretty good shot anyway and was polling close to Wellstone. People in Minnesota liked Wellstone, but he had broken several of his key promises from the first time he ran.

1) I will never run a negative campaign.

Which is what he did against Coleman.

2) I will not run for a third term.

He was running for his third term.

3) I forget what the exact sum was, but he said he would never raise more than a certain amount of money.

He raised and spent nearly twice that against Coleman.

Before the crash, Wellstone was beginning to take the lead in polls, if I recall correctly.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2005, 07:29:25 pm »
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The democrats would pull a Wellstone, they would totally hype it to the point where it's distastefull.

Pulling a Wellstone and hyping it the way MN Dems did didn't just make it distasteful. There are some things that are distasteful, people voice their opposition to it and move on. Wellstone hype was so distasteful that it actually caused Coleman to win.

You mean the Wellstone funeral was distasteful?

It became a political rally. Harkin got up to speak and started screaming all this partisan stuff. I have to say that Senator Harkin has been in the wrong place when it comes to screaming events (the Wellstone event and the infamous Dean scream).
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Akno21
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2005, 08:35:47 pm »
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The democrats would pull a Wellstone, they would totally hype it to the point where it's distastefull.

Pulling a Wellstone and hyping it the way MN Dems did didn't just make it distasteful. There are some things that are distasteful, people voice their opposition to it and move on. Wellstone hype was so distasteful that it actually caused Coleman to win.

You mean the Wellstone funeral was distasteful?

It became a political rally. Harkin got up to speak and started screaming all this partisan stuff. I have to say that Senator Harkin has been in the wrong place when it comes to screaming events (the Wellstone event and the infamous Dean scream).

How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.
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Jake
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2005, 08:47:31 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral.  That's right
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2005, 08:54:17 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2005, 10:45:38 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

That gives Tom Harkin the right to start jumping up and down, making it into a Senate candidate rally? I got to thank Harking for doing it though. Thanks in part to his actions, MN has one Republican Senator and another on the way.  Smiley
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Jake
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2005, 11:02:46 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

No, that doesn't excuse booing a member of the other party who came to honor his colleague.  The entire rally was just disgusting and extremely tasteless in every way.  The nation, and Minnesota in particular, saw the true face of the Democrats that day. Bitter, angry, and to partisan to even honor a good man without attacking another.
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2005, 12:20:33 am »
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and another on the way. Smiley

1-don't get your hopes up.
2-Even if Kennedy wins, that event will have absolutely nothing to do with it.
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2005, 03:14:37 pm »
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and another on the way. Smiley

1-don't get your hopes up.
2-Even if Kennedy wins, that event will have absolutely nothing to do with it.

I know that event will have nothing to do with a Kennedy win.
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2005, 03:54:20 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

That gives Tom Harkin the right to start jumping up and down, making it into a Senate candidate rally? I got to thank Harking for doing it though. Thanks in part to his actions, MN has one Republican Senator and another on the way. Smiley

You know what it is, I don't think you and your fellow Republicans realized how much people can actually admire a politician. It was a very special case, I would estimate Wellstone, among his supporters, was one of the most beloved Senators in the nation. If Paul Sarbanes, John Kerry, a long list of other Senators died in the same fashion, the outpouring would have been smaller.

Harkin was speaking to a crowd of 16,000 PAUL WELLSTONE SUPPORTERS! What do you expect him to say, "Well, now that our candidate is down, go out and vote Coleman."? Also keep in mind that was not the funeral. If it were at the funeral that would be different. Were most of the speakers liberal? Of course they were? If Rick Santorum died in late October 2006, I'm pretty sure you'd have some Republican up there saying we've got to win this election for Rick Santorum.

The event was blown out of proportion by the right-wing media, many of which weren't even at the event and saw bits of it on television.
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2005, 03:57:50 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

No, that doesn't excuse booing a member of the other party who came to honor his colleague. The entire rally was just disgusting and extremely tasteless in every way. The nation, and Minnesota in particular, saw the true face of the Democrats that day. Bitter, angry, and to partisan to even honor a good man without attacking another.

The same people who were vicously lying about him only a few days before? The Wellstone supporters didn't like that Bill Frist, chairman of the Republican senate election committee, had been unfairly, in their view, attacking him just days earlier. There's going to be animosity. Those were simply Wellstone's admirers, not the man himself. Of course they don't like the Republicans. Imagine what would have happened if Bill Clinton had gone to a funeral after Newt Gingrich (hypothetically) died in a plane crash around the '94 elections. He would have been shot.

IIRC, Hillary Clinton went to something honoring the 9/11 heroes, her constitutiants, and was vicously attacked by the right-wing media for showing up.
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2005, 05:00:10 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

That gives Tom Harkin the right to start jumping up and down, making it into a Senate candidate rally? I got to thank Harking for doing it though. Thanks in part to his actions, MN has one Republican Senator and another on the way. Smiley

You know what it is, I don't think you and your fellow Republicans realized how much people can actually admire a politician. It was a very special case, I would estimate Wellstone, among his supporters, was one of the most beloved Senators in the nation. If Paul Sarbanes, John Kerry, a long list of other Senators died in the same fashion, the outpouring would have been smaller.

Harkin was speaking to a crowd of 16,000 PAUL WELLSTONE SUPPORTERS! What do you expect him to say, "Well, now that our candidate is down, go out and vote Coleman."? Also keep in mind that was not the funeral. If it were at the funeral that would be different. Were most of the speakers liberal? Of course they were? If Rick Santorum died in late October 2006, I'm pretty sure you'd have some Republican up there saying we've got to win this election for Rick Santorum.

The event was blown out of proportion by the right-wing media, many of which weren't even at the event and saw bits of it on television.

I'll sum up my response in one, quick line as I have done before: No matter how many Wellstone folks were there, that did not give him the right to start an all out attack on the Republicans when key Republicans were present.

You really are missing the point that this wasn't supposed to be a political rally. This wasn't supposed to be "Vote for so and so".

And I like how you use a comparison by throwing in Santorum. If he was to die and we were to have a memorial service with members of the opposition attending, I certainly wouldn't appreciate a Pro Santorum speaker shouting at the top of his lungs about the politics of the matter. Save that for your own rally.
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2005, 05:04:16 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

That gives Tom Harkin the right to start jumping up and down, making it into a Senate candidate rally? I got to thank Harking for doing it though. Thanks in part to his actions, MN has one Republican Senator and another on the way. Smiley

You know what it is, I don't think you and your fellow Republicans realized how much people can actually admire a politician. It was a very special case, I would estimate Wellstone, among his supporters, was one of the most beloved Senators in the nation. If Paul Sarbanes, John Kerry, a long list of other Senators died in the same fashion, the outpouring would have been smaller.

Harkin was speaking to a crowd of 16,000 PAUL WELLSTONE SUPPORTERS! What do you expect him to say, "Well, now that our candidate is down, go out and vote Coleman."? Also keep in mind that was not the funeral. If it were at the funeral that would be different. Were most of the speakers liberal? Of course they were? If Rick Santorum died in late October 2006, I'm pretty sure you'd have some Republican up there saying we've got to win this election for Rick Santorum.

The event was blown out of proportion by the right-wing media, many of which weren't even at the event and saw bits of it on television.

I'll sum up my response in one, quick line as I have done before: No matter how many Wellstone folks were there, that did not give him the right to start an all out attack on the Republicans when key Republicans were present.

You really are missing the point that this wasn't supposed to be a political rally. This wasn't supposed to be "Vote for so and so".

And I like how you use a comparison by throwing in Santorum. If he was to die and we were to have a memorial service with members of the opposition attending, I certainly wouldn't appreciate a Pro Santorum speaker shouting at the top of his lungs about the politics of the matter. Save that for your own rally.

It was a memorial rally for a liberal Democrat.

Also, which specific comments did you find unacceptable for the event?
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2005, 05:52:38 pm »
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How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral. That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

That gives Tom Harkin the right to start jumping up and down, making it into a Senate candidate rally? I got to thank Harking for doing it though. Thanks in part to his actions, MN has one Republican Senator and another on the way. Smiley

You know what it is, I don't think you and your fellow Republicans realized how much people can actually admire a politician. It was a very special case, I would estimate Wellstone, among his supporters, was one of the most beloved Senators in the nation. If Paul Sarbanes, John Kerry, a long list of other Senators died in the same fashion, the outpouring would have been smaller.

Harkin was speaking to a crowd of 16,000 PAUL WELLSTONE SUPPORTERS! What do you expect him to say, "Well, now that our candidate is down, go out and vote Coleman."? Also keep in mind that was not the funeral. If it were at the funeral that would be different. Were most of the speakers liberal? Of course they were? If Rick Santorum died in late October 2006, I'm pretty sure you'd have some Republican up there saying we've got to win this election for Rick Santorum.

The event was blown out of proportion by the right-wing media, many of which weren't even at the event and saw bits of it on television.

I'll sum up my response in one, quick line as I have done before: No matter how many Wellstone folks were there, that did not give him the right to start an all out attack on the Republicans when key Republicans were present.

You really are missing the point that this wasn't supposed to be a political rally. This wasn't supposed to be "Vote for so and so".

And I like how you use a comparison by throwing in Santorum. If he was to die and we were to have a memorial service with members of the opposition attending, I certainly wouldn't appreciate a Pro Santorum speaker shouting at the top of his lungs about the politics of the matter. Save that for your own rally.

It was a memorial rally for a liberal Democrat.

Also, which specific comments did you find unacceptable for the event?

It was memorial. End of discussion. Not a political rally.

Harking got up there and was turning it political. He was turning it into "Let's show them! Those big bad Republicans won't win this! We'll show them!" and the fact that members of the Republican leadership took time out of their schedule to go to this memorial and were booed was disgraceful.
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2005, 06:38:39 pm »
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It was memorial. End of discussion. Not a political rally.

Harking got up there and was turning it political. He was turning it into "Let's show them! Those big bad Republicans won't win this! We'll show them!" and the fact that members of the Republican leadership took time out of their schedule to go to this memorial and were booed was disgraceful.

Do you have a copy of his speech?

The part that I thought went over the top was when Wellstone's friend, Rick Hahn, told Republicans to honor your friend and win the election for Paul Wellstone. That was a bit crazy.

How are you going to stop tens of thousands of people from chanting "Fritz, Fritz, Fritz!" when Walter Mondale steps out. As I said, the event was dominated by liberals, and the crowd was basically the liberal base of Minnesota. The liberal base of Minnesota is not going to heartily cheer Bill Frist.

Going back to the Santorum dying scenerio, I'm assuming you would stand up and cheer for Hillary Clinton and any other Democrat who appears at the Santorum memorial.

Overall, I think you simply fail to grasp the emotion that was in that building that night.

This was a public memorial, not a private funeral. The Democrats didn't encourage the crowd to boo the Republicans. It happened. The liberal base of Minnesota booed the republicans. The actual Democratic party candidates/elected officals did not. The Wellstone people did not expect that to happen, they had to revert from last week campaigning to planning a memorial, funeral, and everything else in the matter of days.
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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2005, 06:49:57 pm »
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It was memorial. End of discussion. Not a political rally.

Harking got up there and was turning it political. He was turning it into "Let's show them! Those big bad Republicans won't win this! We'll show them!" and the fact that members of the Republican leadership took time out of their schedule to go to this memorial and were booed was disgraceful.

Do you have a copy of his speech?

The part that I thought went over the top was when Wellstone's friend, Rick Hahn, told Republicans to honor your friend and win the election for Paul Wellstone. That was a bit crazy.

How are you going to stop tens of thousands of people from chanting "Fritz, Fritz, Fritz!" when Walter Mondale steps out. As I said, the event was dominated by liberals, and the crowd was basically the liberal base of Minnesota. The liberal base of Minnesota is not going to heartily cheer Bill Frist.

Going back to the Santorum dying scenerio, I'm assuming you would stand up and cheer for Hillary Clinton and any other Democrat who appears at the Santorum memorial.

Overall, I think you simply fail to grasp the emotion that was in that building that night.

This was a public memorial, not a private funeral. The Democrats didn't encourage the crowd to boo the Republicans. It happened. The liberal base of Minnesota booed the republicans. The actual Democratic party candidates/elected officals did not. The Wellstone people did not expect that to happen, they had to revert from last week campaigning to planning a memorial, funeral, and everything else in the matter of days.

I wouldn't cheer Hillary but I wouldn't act like inappropriate either.

What you're failing to grasp is the fact that it was a memorial and the behavior was out of line. It was so out of line that we now have a Senate seat because of it. Now tell me how liberal Minnesotans are.
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The soon-to-be-re-elected Kings of Kansas.
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