Ukraine Crisis

[Peeperkorn]

humanitarian grounds. The goal is to gain influence and power, not to be nice and moral.

The reason I think the West should support the "rebels" in this case is almost solely to undermine Russia.

This.

[Famous Mortimer]

Why?

If you aren't legitimately opposed to their ideology, why bother to undermine them?

[ag]

Guys, stop bullsh**tting about this sh**t. People are dying. I myself may have many problems with this or that, but when the government sends snipers to shoot citizens in the streets, it is time to shut up - at least until the moment when that government is no longer there.

[Mr. Illini]

Guys, stop bullsh**tting about this sh**t. People are dying. I myself may have many problems with this or that, but when the government sends snipers to shoot citizens in the streets, it is time to shut up - at least until the moment when that government is no longer there.

Why shut up rather than speaking out against the government there?

[Peeperkorn]

Guys, stop bullsh**tting about this sh**t. People are dying. I myself may have many problems with this or that, but when the government sends snipers to shoot citizens in the streets, it is time to shut up - at least until the moment when that government is no longer there.

What?

[Mr. Illini]

Lviv has declared independence from the Ukrainian central government

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-facing-civil-war-lviv-declares-independence-yanukovich-rule-1437092

[ag]

Lviv has declared independence from the Ukrainian central government

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-facing-civil-war-lviv-declares-independence-yanukovich-rule-1437092

It is not just Lviv. Basically, the entire west is not under the control of the central government. Not merely the usual suspects (Lviv, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk), but a few others as well (Volyn, Rivne, Khmelnytsky) and even the Transcarpathia, which has always been the one pro-government bit in the West.

In Khmelnytsky, for instance, the head of the local office of the State Security Agency (SBU - the ex-KGB) was arrested during his appearance at the regional legislature (he was trying to explain/apologize for the killing of a demonstrator the previous day by his men).  He was  taken away by the members of the local military unit, which had declared its allegiance to the local authority. In Lutsk (capital of Volyn) the (appointed) governor was refusing to resign - after which he was handcuffed and forced to kneel before the demonstrators. In Transcarpathia the local faction of the governing party (the only sizeable faction of this sort in the West) disbanded itself, with the members leaving the party (the party´s national MPs from the region have also declared themselves independents and participated in today´s opposition-led meeting of the Rada in Kiev).  The Transcarpathian unit of the police special forces (Berkut) declared its allegiance to "the people" and is refusing commands from its superiors. Basically, if I get it right, pretty much anything west of, as well as some bits further east (Poltava), is now out of the central government control to full or partial extent.

[RogueBeaver]

The Army's deputy chief of staff has resigned, BBC citing local media.

[ag]

The Army's deputy chief of staff has resigned, BBC citing local media.

Yep. BTW, Yanukovich yesterday replaced the Head of Armed forces - the new guy is the former Head of the Navy (born in Belarus, based all his life in pro-Russian Crimea).

[ag]

The real danger is today in Crimea, actually. At noon local time there is an extraordinary session of the local legislature. If the Russians. The rumor is, it will give the Russians the pretext to get in, by asking for "help". The Tatars are in arms - but there aren´t many other pro-Ukrainian groups there.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Lviv has declared independence from the Ukrainian central government

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-facing-civil-war-lviv-declares-independence-yanukovich-rule-1437092

In before I hear the first "time to retake Lwów"...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

humanitarian grounds. The goal is to gain influence and power, not to be nice and moral.

The reason I think the West should support the "rebels" in this case is almost solely to undermine Russia.

This.

Go meddle in your own f**king hemisphere, please.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Yanukovych has apparently agreed to a compromise early this morning, but the opposition doesn't seem to be fully satisfied yet. Another round of Government-Opposition-Germany/Poland talks are scheduled for noon today.

UPDATE: So far, the agreement seems to include a re-instatement of the amendment to the Ukrainian constitution of 2004 which had limited the powers of the president, the formation of a coalition government, and presidential elections in December of this year.

[Middle-aged Europe]

A good source for direct up-to-date information is the Twitter account of the Polish foreign minister:

https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/

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[Zuza]

and presidential elections in December of this year.

Presidential elections already were scheduled for February 2015, only 2 months later. It would make more sense to call an early parliamentary elections.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Yeah, it seems that Yanukovych is unwilling to step down now is the main objection opposition leaders have to the proposed agreement.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I think the bad guys, aka the government, are clearly bad. I think the good guys, aka the opponents, are mostly bad and pursuing other interests than freedom and democracy for all...

I disagree. Euromaidan has been gradually shifting to a more pro-EU tone over the course of the last few months. Obviously a power vacuum would create potential for an authoritarian regime, but I would not say that the current protests are showing that at the moment.

Anyway, why is Snowstalker so reluctant to at least entirely criticize the existing government? The pro-Russia faction consists of many neoliberal, capitalist, and religious orthodox viewpoints.

The pro-Russian faction is just as awful, yes, but I find it necessary to push back against the western narrative of this and Venezuela being "noble protesters united against pure evil governments!!!11!"

For the record, I unfortunately have little faith in the proposed peace deal.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The pro-Russian faction is just as awful, yes, but I find it necessary to push back against the western narrative of this and Venezuela being "noble protesters united against pure evil governments!!!11!"

Well, obviously there are always shades of grey.

Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King possessed some truly negative traits and the Western Allies did horrible things during WWII.

There no 100% morally pure characters. Perhaps the human need to believe in 100% morally pure characters sometimes has the result that people are made bigger than they are, but then again we won't be able change to that.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Breaking: Maidan Council agrees to sign compromise with Yanukovych.

UPDATE: Full text of the agreement here... http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/cae/servlet/contentblob/671350/publicationFile/190027/140221-UKR_Erklaerung.pdf

[RogueBeaver]

The street isn't happy, primarily because Yanukovych remains in office till the election.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Guys, stop bullsh**tting about this sh**t. People are dying.

Lots of people as well...

[Middle-aged Europe]

The street isn't happy, primarily because Yanukovych remains in office till the election.

The question is how large the share of protestors is who are truly disaffected by this agreement. The coming weeks will show, I guess.

In any case, the Ukrainian Parliament just voted to restore the Constitution of 2004, which was the first demand of the agreement.

[RogueBeaver]

Plus Tymoshenko is still in jail and Klitschko's residency issue is still unclear.

[Famous Mortimer]

How many times has Ukraine gone back and fourth, chipping away power from the president only to give it back a few years later?

[RogueBeaver]

Rada has just voted to release Tymoshenko. 12 more MPs have left POR.