Ukraine Crisis
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 08:44:41 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Ukraine Crisis
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 59 60 61 62 63 [64] 65 66 67 68 69 ... 72
Author Topic: Ukraine Crisis  (Read 233898 times)
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,080
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1575 on: August 27, 2014, 01:13:50 PM »

Not a good turn.  Putin is going to keep pushing until somebody bigger than the Ukraine stands up to him.  Do we have the balls?  Do we even care?  Granted, this is much more of a European problem than an American problem, it's still a problem.  A problem that we shouldn't let stand.  We shouldn't have let 8/8 stand either.
Logged
Pingvin
Pingvin99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,761
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1576 on: August 28, 2014, 07:47:07 AM »

Poroshenko has confirmed the entry of Russian troops.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1577 on: August 28, 2014, 11:31:45 AM »
« Edited: August 28, 2014, 11:35:55 AM by ag »

Poroshenko has confirmed the entry of Russian troops.

So has NATO. So, pretty much,  have the "rebels". At this point, this is about as well-established as anything could be well-established.

And? What are you planning to do, Mr. Chamberlain? And you, M. Daladier?
Logged
Person Man
Angry_Weasel
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,681
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1578 on: August 28, 2014, 01:42:11 PM »

This is very disconcerting to say the very least. What do you think we should do about it? 
Logged
swl
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 581
France


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1579 on: August 28, 2014, 02:51:04 PM »
« Edited: August 28, 2014, 03:08:12 PM by swl »

Connecting Russia to Crimea and even further to Transnitria would definitely be a big success for Russia. I don't know whether that's the goal or whether they just wanted to re-balance the war that was being lost by the rebels.

This is very disconcerting to say the very least. What do you think we should do about it? 
Personally, I think we should push both sides to agree on a referendum organized by third-parties in the disputed areas (at least Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts) on whether they want or not to get more autonomy from Kiev.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1580 on: August 28, 2014, 03:07:58 PM »

This is very disconcerting to say the very least. What do you think we should do about it? 

Major across the board sanctions against Russia and active economic and military aid for the Ukrainian government. Sanctions should include very strict restrictions on all financial transactions with Russia (basically, each such transaction should be authorized individually); ban on all new investment there;  banning every airline that flies to Crimea from the European and American airspace, as well as stopping all regular flights from airports that receive flights from Crimea; prohibition on any ship entering any Crimea port from using European/American ports.  Also, I would suggest major military maneuvers all around the Russian frontiers - from the Northern Territories in the East to the Kola peninsula in the west. Supporting Lituania and Poland in cutting rail and road links to Kaliningrad. Recalling ambassadors, expelling Russian ambassadors and closing Russian consulates outside capital cities. Approaching China promising full support if it chooses to make any gains at Russian expense. Etc., etc., etc. There are many things that could be done.
Logged
Person Man
Angry_Weasel
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,681
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1581 on: August 28, 2014, 03:18:57 PM »

This is very disconcerting to say the very least. What do you think we should do about it?  

Major across the board sanctions against Russia and active economic and military aid for the Ukrainian government. Sanctions should include very strict restrictions on all financial transactions with Russia (basically, each such transaction should be authorized individually); ban on all new investment there;  banning every airline that flies to Crimea from the European and American airspace, as well as stopping all regular flights from airports that receive flights from Crimea; prohibition on any ship entering any Crimea port from using European/American ports.  Also, I would suggest major military maneuvers all around the Russian frontiers - from the Northern Territories in the East to the Kola peninsula in the west. Supporting Lituania and Poland in cutting rail and road links to Kaliningrad. Recalling ambassadors, expelling Russian ambassadors and closing Russian consulates outside capital cities. Approaching China promising full support if it chooses to make any gains at Russian expense. Etc., etc., etc. There are many things that could be done.

I think those are all good ideas. Do they necessarily need to be done in any timeframe or order? It would be great to give time for companies to come up with contingencies. We shouldn't be afraid of Russia...at all but we want to get as many people on board with us so that our isolation of them can be as efficient and effective as possible.
Logged
swl
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 581
France


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1582 on: August 28, 2014, 04:07:38 PM »
« Edited: August 28, 2014, 04:13:42 PM by swl »

The troops really keep complaining about their poor equipment, delivering weapons would make a big difference. There are other steps in between though, I don't know if we will eventually reach that stage or not.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1583 on: August 28, 2014, 05:03:43 PM »

The troops really keep complaining about their poor equipment, delivering weapons would make a big difference. There are other steps in between though, I don't know if we will eventually reach that stage or not.

Start with economically blockading Crimea. Aeroflot chooses to fly there - ban it from Europe, recall the leased planes, etc. Sheremetyevo Airport chooses to accept planes from Simferopol - stop accepting planes from Sheremeytevo. A bank opened an ATM there - put it on the sanctions list. Also, after Russia introduced its "anti-sanctions" against Western food, it made exceptions for things it cannot live without - take that list and make it stick. Finally, the diplomatic sanctions should be immediate: ambassadors should be recalled for consultations, Russian ambassadors expelled, Russian consulates closed. Broad financial sanctions can still wait - they should be the threat. Also, I would take a couple very well-known oligarchs who tend to spend a lot of time abroad and put them on the list personally - whatever it does to FC Chelsea and the like.

And, BTW, though it is outside any government's sphere of action, there is something that would sting a lot. Russian Football Union has allowed Crimean teams into the championship. They were very nervous about it - new clubs were formed, rather than Ukrainian accepted, and the clubs were registered outside Crimea. But they are named for Crimean towns and play in Crimea. I am pretty sure, this is grounds for kicking Russia out of the UEFA. This should be done.
Logged
swl
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 581
France


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1584 on: August 28, 2014, 06:22:32 PM »
« Edited: August 28, 2014, 06:28:38 PM by swl »

These are all possible options, but before deciding about the means we need to set the goals.

For example, I think many in Europe are fine with Crimea going back to Russia. It could have happened in better ways, but also in much worse ways, so there is a kind of relief that it happened in a "not so bad" way. So I don't think we will see any decisive European sanctions about Crimea, just a few symbolic things.

A kind of decentralization of Ukraine with more autonomy for the East would also probably be seen as a positive outcome, and apparently Merkel is pushing Poroshenko in this direction.

There are on the other hand things that are unacceptable from a European point of view, and a link between Crimea and mainland Russia is one of them, so let's see if Putin is trying to get that.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1585 on: August 28, 2014, 06:33:06 PM »

These are all possible options, but before deciding about the means we need to set the goals.

For example, I think many in Europe are fine with Crimea going back to Russia. It could have happened in better ways, but also in much worse ways, so there is a kind of relief that it happened in a "not so bad" way. So I don't think we will see any decisive European sanctions about Crimea, just a few symbolic things.

A kind of decentralization of Ukraine with more autonomy for the East would also probably be seen as a positive outcome, and apparently Merkel is pushing Poroshenko in this direction.

There are on the other hand things that are unacceptable from a European point of view, and a link between Crimea and mainland Russia is one of them, so let's see if Putin is trying to get that.

Under the circumstances, giving Russia the Crimea or giving Russia any say in Ukrainian affairs will lead to a general European war as inexorably as giving up completely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Sudeten_Crisis
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1586 on: August 28, 2014, 08:04:24 PM »

Let's say that Crimea held a legitimate referendum (I'm definitely not under the impression that the one in March was fair) and chose to stay in Russia with, say, 60% of the vote. What would you support then, ag?
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1587 on: August 28, 2014, 08:52:41 PM »

Let's say that Crimea held a legitimate referendum (I'm definitely not under the impression that the one in March was fair) and chose to stay in Russia with, say, 60% of the vote. What would you support then, ag?

No legitimate referendum in Crimea is now possible, at least in short term. As far as I am concerned, a referendum would only be legitimate if the Jan 1, 2014 status quo is restored first - that is, Russia fully withdraws. Then, an election - under Ukrainian law - should be held to elect the authorities of the Crimean Autonomous Republic. These authorities would have to negotiate with the national government the conduct and the timetable for such a referendum (Scotland- or Quebec-style) - taking into account the opinion of the indigenous Tartar population. All this time the Russian government should be credibly committed to non-interference, irrespective of the vote result. I do not see any of that happening any time soon.

The fact is, if on Jan 1, 2014 such a referendum were held, it would have, probably, lost in Crimea proper (would have won in Sevastopol - especially if the resident Russians were to have been allowed a vote). Parties advocating switch to Russia routinely got miniscule percentages in actual voting there. Russian invasion dramatically changed the situation, of course. Currently many people would simply be afraid of going back to Ukraine, which they have betrayed. But allowing the annexation to stand would reward an invasion. And that cannot be accepted.

To sum up, I would not mind Crimea joining Russia some time in the future, if its population so desires - but only after Russia first unconditionally capitulates. This Russian regime cannot be allowed to enjoy any conquest.
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1588 on: August 28, 2014, 10:19:26 PM »

My solution, for the record:

Place Crimea under temporary UN administration and hold a three-way referendum between Russia, Ukraine, and independence. One of these three options has to get over 50% to win outright.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1589 on: August 29, 2014, 12:04:30 AM »

My solution, for the record:

Place Crimea under temporary UN administration and hold a three-way referendum between Russia, Ukraine, and independence. One of these three options has to get over 50% to win outright.

Well, this can only happen after Russia is defeated.
Logged
Zanas
Zanas46
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,947
France


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1590 on: August 29, 2014, 03:44:58 AM »

The problem is, you know, all parts involved are capitalists, and they don't want to stop making business with anyone. And Western governments have stripped themselves of the powers to force them to do so. So no economic sanction of any sort (like the banning of planes, ships and so on that you proposed) will be implemented by airlines, port authorities...

As for UEFA banning : do you really think UEFA is anywhere near a politically responsible organism ? Next football World Cup is staged in Russia and you think UEFA will ban the Russian Federation ? I ask this with all the kindness I can, and sincerely : are you deluded or do you really believe the measures you propose can actually realistically be implemented ?

The truth is, nobody in the West gives a sh**t if Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, even if it gobbles up the whole of Ukraine for that matter. As long as we don't get into a war and can do business. Munich spirit is strong.
Logged
○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└
jfern
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 53,611


Political Matrix
E: -7.38, S: -8.36

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1591 on: August 29, 2014, 04:04:27 AM »

Even Russians seem to now know that Russia attacked the Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28965597
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1592 on: August 29, 2014, 05:05:13 AM »

The problem is, you know, all parts involved are capitalists, and they don't want to stop making business with anyone. And Western governments have stripped themselves of the powers to force them to do so. So no economic sanction of any sort (like the banning of planes, ships and so on that you proposed) will be implemented by airlines, port authorities...

As for UEFA banning : do you really think UEFA is anywhere near a politically responsible organism ? Next football World Cup is staged in Russia and you think UEFA will ban the Russian Federation ? I ask this with all the kindness I can, and sincerely : are you deluded or do you really believe the measures you propose can actually realistically be implemented ?

The truth is, nobody in the West gives a sh**t if Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, even if it gobbles up the whole of Ukraine for that matter. As long as we don't get into a war and can do business. Munich spirit is strong.

So far, it is the French socialists that are the most willing to make trade, not war.  Especially, if that trade is in French- built assault ships.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,178
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1593 on: August 29, 2014, 05:42:20 AM »

France continues to build warships for Russia, ExxonMobil starts drilling for oil in Sibiria, and the next FIFA World Cup is still going to take place in Russia.

It may be that Russia invaded Ukraine. On the other hand, there's still a whole lot of money to be made in Russia. Tongue
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,684
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1594 on: August 29, 2014, 09:06:42 AM »


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

There is a well known Novaya Gazeta in Moscow, a liberal opposition paper where Anna Politkovskaya wrote her reports on the Second Chechen War (btw, this conflict appears to be another 'dirty war'). Is there a homonymous paper in Kiev?  Any relation with the one in Moscow?

From Russia's Novaya Gazeta:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://en.novayagazeta.ru/
Logged
swl
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 581
France


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1595 on: August 29, 2014, 12:46:26 PM »
« Edited: August 29, 2014, 12:57:15 PM by swl »

The problem is, you know, all parts involved are capitalists, and they don't want to stop making business with anyone. And Western governments have stripped themselves of the powers to force them to do so. So no economic sanction of any sort (like the banning of planes, ships and so on that you proposed) will be implemented by airlines, port authorities...

As for UEFA banning : do you really think UEFA is anywhere near a politically responsible organism ? Next football World Cup is staged in Russia and you think UEFA will ban the Russian Federation ? I ask this with all the kindness I can, and sincerely : are you deluded or do you really believe the measures you propose can actually realistically be implemented ?

The truth is, nobody in the West gives a sh**t if Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, even if it gobbles up the whole of Ukraine for that matter. As long as we don't get into a war and can do business. Munich spirit is strong.

So far, it is the French socialists that are the most willing to make trade, not war.  Especially, if that trade is in French- built assault ships.
Since you like to refer to the Munich agreements, I want to remind you that it was a failure from the UK and France to respect a military agreement with Czechoslovakia.
In the case of Crimea, it's the US and the UK who have an agreement to defend Ukraine's territorial integrity, and who are failing to respect it. So go first, we'll follow (maybe Wink).
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1596 on: August 29, 2014, 02:41:45 PM »

The problem is, you know, all parts involved are capitalists, and they don't want to stop making business with anyone. And Western governments have stripped themselves of the powers to force them to do so. So no economic sanction of any sort (like the banning of planes, ships and so on that you proposed) will be implemented by airlines, port authorities...

As for UEFA banning : do you really think UEFA is anywhere near a politically responsible organism ? Next football World Cup is staged in Russia and you think UEFA will ban the Russian Federation ? I ask this with all the kindness I can, and sincerely : are you deluded or do you really believe the measures you propose can actually realistically be implemented ?

The truth is, nobody in the West gives a sh**t if Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, even if it gobbles up the whole of Ukraine for that matter. As long as we don't get into a war and can do business. Munich spirit is strong.

So far, it is the French socialists that are the most willing to make trade, not war.  Especially, if that trade is in French- built assault ships.
Since you like to refer to the Munich agreements, I want to remind you that it was a failure from the UK and France to respect a military agreement with Czechoslovakia.
In the case of Crimea, it's the US and the UK who have an agreement to defend Ukraine's territorial integrity, and who are failing to respect it. So go first, we'll follow (maybe Wink).

I fully agree. But I am Mexican, not American. BTW, it was Mexico that was the only country to protest against the Anschluss in the League of Nations.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1597 on: August 29, 2014, 02:44:33 PM »

France continues to build warships for Russia, ExxonMobil starts drilling for oil in Sibiria, and the next FIFA World Cup is still going to take place in Russia.

It may be that Russia invaded Ukraine. On the other hand, there's still a whole lot of money to be made in Russia. Tongue

Yes and no. I was told that by late last fall pretty much no new investment projects in Russia were being started. Yes, Russia has a humongous fuel bonanza, but only very large firms can operate at the scale that both pays the cost of doing business there and, at least partially, protects them from expropriation. Yes, there is a lot of money there - but getting is is dangerous not only for your morals, but also for your life.

BTW, I would certainly move the World Cup.
Logged
Zanas
Zanas46
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,947
France


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1598 on: August 29, 2014, 07:27:17 PM »


So far, it is the French socialists that are the most willing to make trade, not war.  Especially, if that trade is in French- built assault ships.
My point exactly. Probably because they are among the vilest and most coward people on this planet, at least on this continent. (French socialists, not French people at large) (well, one can wonder...) (no, I guess not) (surely there's some other people that qualifies) (no ?) (anybody ?)
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1599 on: August 30, 2014, 05:18:54 AM »

The problem is, you know, all parts involved are capitalists, and they don't want to stop making business with anyone. And Western governments have stripped themselves of the powers to force them to do so. So no economic sanction of any sort (like the banning of planes, ships and so on that you proposed) will be implemented by airlines, port authorities...

As for UEFA banning : do you really think UEFA is anywhere near a politically responsible organism ? Next football World Cup is staged in Russia and you think UEFA will ban the Russian Federation ? I ask this with all the kindness I can, and sincerely : are you deluded or do you really believe the measures you propose can actually realistically be implemented ?

The truth is, nobody in the West gives a sh**t if Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, even if it gobbles up the whole of Ukraine for that matter. As long as we don't get into a war and can do business. Munich spirit is strong.

So far, it is the French socialists that are the most willing to make trade, not war.  Especially, if that trade is in French- built assault ships.
Since you like to refer to the Munich agreements, I want to remind you that it was a failure from the UK and France to respect a military agreement with Czechoslovakia.
In the case of Crimea, it's the US and the UK who have an agreement to defend Ukraine's territorial integrity, and who are failing to respect it. So go first, we'll follow (maybe Wink).

I fully agree. But I am Mexican, not American. BTW, it was Mexico that was the only country to protest against the Anschluss in the League of Nations.

Not to mention the Fascist occupation of Ethiopia.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 59 60 61 62 63 [64] 65 66 67 68 69 ... 72  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.061 seconds with 11 queries.