Ukraine Crisis

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Kerry: U.S. open to sanctions.

Did we slap sanctions on Bahrain when they murdered protesters? Oh wait no, they're our ally so it's okay.

[windjammer]

Kerry: U.S. open to sanctions.

Did we slap sanctions on Bahrain when they murdered protesters? Oh wait no, they're our ally so it's okay.

Of course.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Reports are both sides are now quite armed (with part of the Berkut switching sides). And there was some fire and some bodies, so I'm not very confident truce can be enforced

Who exactly are the neo-nazis? (and please cite evidence of them being such) I have yet to see any swastikas or skinheads in the pictures of the groups attacking the gov't offices yet.

I have no doubt that there are likely some racists and anti-immigrants in the groups, but that does not equal neo-nazi.  

Does the Slavic far right use the swastica often? I would think that it would be quite unpopular

Yeah, you would, but no it isn't, is the short answer.

If I could get five cents for every time I saw Slavic neo-nazis using swastika, I'd be more wealthy than Warren Buffet.

[Zanas]

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Convinced now ? I'm with Snowstalker and Kalwejt on this one.

 

[Middle-aged Europe]

Reminds me a bit of Syria, of all places.

Authoritarian government supresses initially peaceful protests, which results in the protests gradually being taken over by extremists and a civil war-like situation. Replace Islamists with neo-Nazis.

[Person Man]

Reminds me a bit of Syria, of all places.

Authoritarian government supresses initially peaceful protests, which results in the protests gradually being taken over by right-wing extremists and a civil war-like situation. Replace Islamists with neo-Nazis.

Even easier.

The main difference is that this is happening in the backyard between  global allies and rivals, not regional allies and rivals. This probably increases the chances of this escalating by a small amount or not.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The French, German, and Polish foreign ministers have apparently decided to extent their stay in Kiev and remain there till tomorrow at least. Today they met with Yanukovych and leaders of the opposition.

[traininthedistance]

Well, Timothy Snyder writing in the NY Review of Books is unconvinced about this whole "protesters are fascists" idea and wants to turn it back on Putin & co.:

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I don't claim to be particularly well-informed about the situation there, but food for thought perhaps.

[Peeperkorn]

The nationalists are like the 10% of the opposition. I would be more concerned about the far right in countries like France.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There's a near 0% chance of the fascists taking power in Ukraine. They don't have anywhere near wide enough support, being loud and vocal doesn't make up for that. Plus they hate the EU as much as the current government.

[Cory]

Did we slap sanctions on Bahrain when they murdered protesters? Oh wait no, they're our ally so it's okay.

Well of course. It would be stupid to make foreign policy solely on humanitarian grounds. The goal is to gain influence and power, not to be nice and moral.

The reason I think the West should support the "rebels" in this case is almost solely to undermine Russia.

[Cory]

This thread reminds me for some reason of what a joke network Russia Today is, and how it's frustrating that so many people think they are being "alternative" by watching it.

[MaxQue]

Convinced now ? I'm with Snowstalker and Kalwejt on this one.

He was elected to Parliament as a member of the government party. So, obliviously, he will try to remove all credibility to the opposition.

[RogueBeaver]

EU has agreed on a sanctions package that includes asset freezes and visa bans, per BBC. Oligarchs, alas, aren't on that list.

[Franknburger]

German TV yesterday had a longer feature from a  team that joined Klitchko over a few days when he was travelling to several provincial capitals. They showed him discussing with a local Yanukovich supporter who strongly opposed the Ukraine opening towards the EU, as that would lead to the legalisation of gay marriage. Oh, this great Soviet Union tradition of disinformation.

On my company's Christmas party, I met an old colleague and friend from Ukraine and asked him, half jokingly, how the Maidan was those days. Turned out that he had been spending almost every night there, and he didn't report anything about Neo-Nazis (which he sure would have been concerned about if that was a real issue). According to him, the overwhelming mood was (a) "We feel European, not Soviet/Russian" and (b) "We need the oligarchs to stop, and we need Europe's help in that". Haven't heard of him since, though, maybe the mood has changed in the meantime. But overall, it reminds me more of post-Soeharto Indonesia, where agent provocateurs tried to stifle anti-Chinese action in order to provide the military with a reason to keep power, than of Syria.

[Zanas]

I think we can expect both sides to be anti-semitic. It's Ukraine, after all...

I think the bad guys, aka the government, are clearly bad. I think the good guys, aka the opponents, are mostly bad and pursuing other interests than freedom and democracy for all...

So I guess it's another of those lose-lose situations. Don't we get a lot of those...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

There's a near 0% chance of the fascists taking power in Ukraine.They don't have anywhere near wide enough support, being loud and vocal doesn't make up for that.

Formal membership-wise? Yes, but you obviously know very little about Western Ukraine. It's a very fruitful ground for such types. You really should do some reading on Bandera, who is a hero in the region and to whom Ukrainian far-rightist are proud ideological heirs.

I can't see any fascist governments in Kiev either, but what I can see and what I'm scared about is these types gaining more and more influence. History shows what they're capable of.

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You point being? Of course they do, but why should that stop them from joining the protests? It's in their best interest to be involved.

Reminds me a bit of Syria, of all places.

I hope it will never come to this. Having a civil war on my border is the last thing I'd like to see.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, Timothy Snyder writing in the NY Review of Books is unconvinced about this whole "protesters are fascists" idea and wants to turn it back on Putin & co.:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't claim to be particularly well-informed about the situation there, but food for thought perhaps.

To be honest, there's a fair chance that both Nazis and Jews are among the protesters.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Ukrainian parliament has voted to end the so-called anti-terrorist operations in the country.

Now we have to see if Yanukovych and the security forces comply.

[Mr. Illini]

I think the bad guys, aka the government, are clearly bad. I think the good guys, aka the opponents, are mostly bad and pursuing other interests than freedom and democracy for all...

I disagree. Euromaidan has been gradually shifting to a more pro-EU tone over the course of the last few months. Obviously a power vacuum would create potential for an authoritarian regime, but I would not say that the current protests are showing that at the moment.

Anyway, why is Snowstalker so reluctant to at least entirely criticize the existing government? The pro-Russia faction consists of many neoliberal, capitalist, and religious orthodox viewpoints.

[RogueBeaver]

There were reports earlier that the EU FMs had gotten an agreement for early parliamentary and presidential elections, but subsequently backtracked. Klitschko also said they haven't reached agreement.

[Mr. Illini]

70 killed, up to 550 injured today alone

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kiev-death-toll-955/

[Deus Naturae]

John McCain and Chris Murphy join the calls for sanctions.

[Middle-aged Europe]

According to SPIEGEL ONLINE's Ukraine live ticker, Viktor Yanukovych, the leaders of the opposition, members of the Ukrainian parliament, and the German and Polish foreign ministers are in Yanukovych's office at this hour to hammer out some sort of deal.

[Famous Mortimer]

Did we slap sanctions on Bahrain when they murdered protesters? Oh wait no, they're our ally so it's okay.

Well of course. It would be stupid to make foreign policy solely on humanitarian grounds. The goal is to gain influence and power, not to be nice and moral.

The reason I think the West should support the "rebels" in this case is almost solely to undermine Russia.

Again, why do you believe in hostility for the sake of being hostile? That's idiotic.