Ukraine Crisis

[Rocky Rockefeller]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

Hey Snowstalker, Glad to see your at least spreading your sh[inks]t evenly now! 

[Cory]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

Deep.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

Deep.

Kinda ironic coming from you.

[Zioneer]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

Nobody cares, Snowie.

[StateBoiler]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

While I tend to agree in general, this time it is a bit more complicated. In the 1994 Budapest Convention, the USA, the UK and Russia have guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity in return for Ukraine handing over all nuclear weapons inherited from the USSR. If any of the signatories now unilaterally questioned that accord, that would mean a massive blow to worldwide arms control, and put the international credibility of all parties at stake.

This. Also, the whole European stability depends on respecting existing borders.

which was completely disrespected with the establishment of Kosovo

and does respecting existing borders also mean Catalonia should not in fact become independent if the referendum passes in November, which Spain says they don't recognize as legitimate? based on Von Rompuy's and Merkel's statements that the Crimean referendum is illegal based on the Ukrainian constitution, Rajoy should be doing cartwheels because for the EU to be ideologically consistent, that means Catalonian referendum is not legitimate either (the Constitutional Court of Spain has suspended Catalonian parliament declarations in regards to sovereignty, independence, and the referendum)

[retromike22]

https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/441662520831393792
Michael McFaul (former Ambassador to Russia) tweets:

"If Russian govt. endorses Crimean referendum, will they also allow/endorse similar votes in republics in Russian Federation?"

[Mopsus]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

Deep.

Kinda ironic coming from you.

Not as ironic as it coming from someone who supports sweatshops...

[politicus]

Regarding the security guarantee Budpest Memorandum signed by UK, US and Russia. Does anyone know why France and China didn't sign it? Wikipedia says they "later gave individual statements of assurance" is this correct? Neither China nor France seems to have any intentions of getting involved in this.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Vladimir Putin is obviously not Hitler. Not quite, anyway.

Hitler believed in the racial superiority of his people and that they deserved a Lebensraum which consisted of almost all of Eastern Europe as well as parts of Asia... including territories which at no point in history had been by Germany in any way.

Putin doesn't believe in any of this. He most likely believes - being an old school KGB officer and all - that Russia deserves to control a sphere of influence which is more or less identical to the boundaries of the old Soviet Union. Maybe (and hopefully) without the Baltic republics... hopefully because that could cause real trouble. But I assume that Putin knows very well that as long as NATO exists that any direct aggression against the Baltics automatically triggers Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty and this means World War III. And I also doubt that Putin believes in "victory or death" like Hitler did.

There's one parallel between Hitler and Putin though. Both men believed that the rules don't apply to them as long as they find a way to get away with it. In essence, they believed in military power and that international law is just something written on a piece of paper.

What does this mean for "the West"? It means that the West has to deal with someone who belives that everything is fair game as long as it happens on the former territory of the Soviet Unions (sans the Baltic republics).

Now that's my take on Godwin.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

Deep.

Kinda ironic coming from you.

Not as ironic as it coming from someone who supports sweatshops...

Not ironic, this is "rich".

[Mopsus]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

Deep.

Kinda ironic coming from you.

Not as ironic as it coming from someone who supports sweatshops...

Not ironic, this is "rich".

Ah, so close! I promise to go home and study my epic Atlas may-mays later today.

[Cory]

Kinda ironic coming from you.

Let the butthurt flow through you....

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I've heard some reports Yanukovych is in hospital, heart attack suspected.

Kinda ironic coming from you.

Let the butthurt flow through you....

Some sick burn, brother.

[windjammer]

Lol Yakunovitch. At least, if he dies, the temporary government in Ukraine couldn't be contested .

[Paleobrazilian]

Vladimir Putin is obviously not Hitler. Not quite, anyway.

Hitler believed in the racial superiority of his people and that they deserved a Lebensraum which consisted of almost all of Eastern Europe as well as parts of Asia... including territories which at no point in history had been by Germany in any way.

Putin doesn't believe in any of this. He most likely believes - being an old school KGB officer and all - that Russia deserves to control a sphere of influence which is more or less identical to the boundaries of the old Soviet Union. Maybe (and hopefully) without the Baltic republics... hopefully because that could cause real trouble. But I assume that Putin knows very well that as long as NATO exists that any direct aggression against the Baltics automatically triggers Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty and this means World War III. And I also doubt that Putin believes in "victory or death" like Hitler did.

There's one parallel between Hitler and Putin though. Both men believed that the rules don't apply to them as long as they find a way to get away with it. In essence, they believed in military power and that international law is just something written on a piece of paper.

What does this mean for "the West"? It means that the West has to deal with someone who belives that everything is fair game as long as it happens on the former territory of the Soviet Unions (sans the Baltic republics).

Now that's my take on Godwin.

While Putin is no Hitler, the eurasianist thought of many around him is blatantly fascist. Aleksandr Dugin, for example, loves to talk about the need to bring together the "Aryan Nations" under mother Russia. Yikes.

[ag]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

SELF-determination would have been fine

[ag]

Vladimir Putin is obviously not Hitler. Not quite, anyway.

Hitler believed in the racial superiority of his people and that they deserved a Lebensraum which consisted of almost all of Eastern Europe as well as parts of Asia... including territories which at no point in history had been by Germany in any way.

Putin doesn't believe in any of this. He most likely believes - being an old school KGB officer and all - that Russia deserves to control a sphere of influence which is more or less identical to the boundaries of the old Soviet Union. Maybe (and hopefully) without the Baltic republics... hopefully because that could cause real trouble. But I assume that Putin knows very well that as long as NATO exists that any direct aggression against the Baltics automatically triggers Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty and this means World War III. And I also doubt that Putin believes in "victory or death" like Hitler did.

There's one parallel between Hitler and Putin though. Both men believed that the rules don't apply to them as long as they find a way to get away with it. In essence, they believed in military power and that international law is just something written on a piece of paper.

What does this mean for "the West"? It means that the West has to deal with someone who belives that everything is fair game as long as it happens on the former territory of the Soviet Unions (sans the Baltic republics).

Now that's my take on Godwin.

The guy was the KGB chief in Dresden. Are you SURE Baltics would be the only problem?

[ag]

Lol Yakunovitch. At least, if he dies, the temporary government in Ukraine couldn't be contested .

Actually, he may have been a somewhat better man than one would have thought. If he really refused to utter the call for the Russians to come in and lost his life for that, this is a big deal.

[Mr. Morden]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/world/europe/ukraine.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

And Ukraine is already implementing massive austerity measures, including halving pensions. Wonderful.

The Foreign Ministry of Estonia (a country not exactly friendly with Moscow) raises questions about who was responsible for the sniper fire during the Maidan protests.

[NewYorkExpress]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/07/us-russia-cyberespionage-insight-idUSBREA260YI20140307

Russia appears to have aimed spyware at Europe and the U.S, which they call Turla...

It would be interesting to see the timing of this spyware's creation compared to the hostilities in Ukraine (and Georgia I guess) given the targets.

[Silent Hunter]

Ukraine have made a notable statement at the opening ceremony of the Paralympics; only their flag bearer came out in the athletes' parade. They will compete unless the situation escalates.

[Person Man]

Vladimir Putin is obviously not Hitler. Not quite, anyway.

Hitler believed in the racial superiority of his people and that they deserved a Lebensraum which consisted of almost all of Eastern Europe as well as parts of Asia... including territories which at no point in history had been by Germany in any way.

Putin doesn't believe in any of this. He most likely believes - being an old school KGB officer and all - that Russia deserves to control a sphere of influence which is more or less identical to the boundaries of the old Soviet Union. Maybe (and hopefully) without the Baltic republics... hopefully because that could cause real trouble. But I assume that Putin knows very well that as long as NATO exists that any direct aggression against the Baltics automatically triggers Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty and this means World War III. And I also doubt that Putin believes in "victory or death" like Hitler did.

There's one parallel between Hitler and Putin though. Both men believed that the rules don't apply to them as long as they find a way to get away with it. In essence, they believed in military power and that international law is just something written on a piece of paper.

What does this mean for "the West"? It means that the West has to deal with someone who belives that everything is fair game as long as it happens on the former territory of the Soviet Unions (sans the Baltic republics).

Now that's my take on Godwin.

But didn't the Soviet SoI extend beyond Soviet borders and into Southeastern and Central Europe? Or does Putin basically just want to restore the Soviet Union but with the breakaway states as puppets? Maybe he would be interested in the FYR sans Slovenia and Croatia? but then again Yugoslavia was a neutral communist country in the Cold War.

I'm just free associating now, but beyond Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova, Russia has no "in" into places the USSR was in Europe. Asia seems pretty fair game as there was already a way there. I wonder if they will eventually even go into places like Afghanistan to "fight the terrorists" once we leave.   

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Maybe he would be interested in the FYR sans Slovenia and Croatia? but then again Yugoslavia was a neutral communist country in the Cold War.

Russian interest there is a mixture of simple power politics mixed with 19th century Romantic Pan-Slavism.  To a degree that also explains Serbian interest, tho I think that all but the most hard-headed Serbs realize that renewed Serbian dominance of the South Slavs is pure Romantic fiction at this point.

[Miles]

Russians seize Ukranian base in Crimea.