Ukraine Crisis
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Author Topic: Ukraine Crisis  (Read 233914 times)
Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #1200 on: April 16, 2014, 04:16:32 AM »

Russian tanks and soldiers have now entered Eastern Ukraine, near Slawjansk:



Those are Ukrainian tanks who have switched sides and are now supporting the separatists (and are hence flying the Russian flag).
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Velasco
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« Reply #1201 on: April 16, 2014, 05:21:04 AM »

Those are Ukrainian tanks who have switched sides and are now supporting the separatists (and are hence flying the Russian flag).

Yes. The Guardian reports that pro-Russian separatists seized 5 armoured personnel carriers in Kromatorsk (Ukrainian forces seized the town's airport yesterday), which were driven to Slavyansk.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/pro-russian-separatists-seize-ukrainian-armoured-vehicles

According to a council's spokeswoman quoted by El País, at least 20 pro-Russian activists have seized the Donetsk Town Hall.


In response to the situation in Ukraine, BILD newspaper has initiated a petition for the removal of the Russian tanks in front of the Soviet War Memorial in Berlin-Tiergarten.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Tiergarten%29

That'll teach 'em a lesson!!


After reading this, Putin is trembling alone in a room inside the Kremlin.
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politicus
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« Reply #1202 on: April 16, 2014, 08:38:45 AM »

Quote
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea_and_Sevastopol#Stances

I guess fighting a 13 year long war doesn't stop a country from being a pawn of Putin.


are cuban-russian relations not good these days?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #1203 on: April 16, 2014, 08:52:07 AM »

So, no one is talking about the fact that Ukraine seems to be on the verge of civil war now?

Most of us don't speak Ukranian or Russian, so there's not really a whole lot in the way of discussion other than regurgitation of BBC News bulletins, mindless unfalsifiable speculation, or armchair sagery from our suburban homes.

If only there were people in the West who spoke Russian and could transmit such information. Dang.

I didn't know you were a fan of Russia Today, Gustaf.

They're sort of funny, I'll give them that. Wink
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Nathan
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« Reply #1204 on: April 16, 2014, 10:26:08 AM »

Quote
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea_and_Sevastopol#Stances

I guess fighting a 13 year long war doesn't stop a country from being a pawn of Putin.


are cuban-russian relations not good these days?

Cuba voted against the UN resolution supporting Ukraine's position but for whatever reason didn't officially recognize the accession of Crimea and Sevastopol to the Federation. The same is true of, for example, Bolivia and Zimbabwe, so I'm not sure that reflects anything about Cuban-Russian relations specifically. What it does indicate I can't tell.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #1205 on: April 16, 2014, 10:33:21 AM »

According to that Wikipedia page, the position of Belarus is pretty incoherent, so maybe the similar true with regards to Cuba Tongue :

"Position of  Belarus is vague: it includes "Ukraine should remain an integral, indivisible, non-aligned state" and "As for Crimea, I do not like it when the integrity and independence of a country are broken", on the one hand, and "Today Crimea is part of the Russian Federation. No matter whether you recognize it or not, the fact remains." and "Whether Crimea will be recognized as a region of the Russian Federation de-jure does not really matter", on the other hand.[9]"

Translation: So, Crimea is part of Ukraine... except that it's not.
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1206 on: April 16, 2014, 11:41:27 AM »

What on God's green earth happened to the Ukranian military? They're refusing to live fire and actually engage in combat. Sources I follow on Twitter said it's because they refuse to kill/be killed.
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swl
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« Reply #1207 on: April 16, 2014, 12:01:06 PM »

They are asked to shoot their own people, that probably makes a difference.
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1208 on: April 16, 2014, 12:08:40 PM »

Then why deploy them in the first place?
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1209 on: April 16, 2014, 12:21:04 PM »

Ukrainian journalist quoting a government adviser: they don't want any dead bodies before Geneva or any civilian casualties.
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ag
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« Reply #1210 on: April 17, 2014, 01:14:35 AM »

Ukrainians do not want to be the first to shed blood. The problem is, that, probably, means, that, eventually, there will be A LOT of blood.
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ingemann
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« Reply #1211 on: April 17, 2014, 03:55:18 AM »

According to that Wikipedia page, the position of Belarus is pretty incoherent, so maybe the similar true with regards to Cuba Tongue :

"Position of  Belarus is vague: it includes "Ukraine should remain an integral, indivisible, non-aligned state" and "As for Crimea, I do not like it when the integrity and independence of a country are broken", on the one hand, and "Today Crimea is part of the Russian Federation. No matter whether you recognize it or not, the fact remains." and "Whether Crimea will be recognized as a region of the Russian Federation de-jure does not really matter", on the other hand.[9]"

Translation: So, Crimea is part of Ukraine... except that it's not.

No the translation are this: "We are a small neighbour to Russia, so we don't like that Russia invades its smaller neighbours, but neither do we wish to make our big neighbour angry at us"
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Zanas
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« Reply #1212 on: April 17, 2014, 08:38:31 AM »

Then why deploy them in the first place?
Because a good chunk of the military's hierarchy has been purged and replaced by incompetents who have just been in office for a few weeks ? And they are morons ? Yes, Krutov, I'm pointing at you...
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1213 on: April 17, 2014, 10:24:54 AM »

Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1214 on: April 17, 2014, 10:31:17 AM »

Canada will be sending 6 Hornets to Poland and 20 officers to NATO HQ.
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1215 on: April 17, 2014, 11:00:30 AM »

Donetsk separatist leader denies responsibility for the leaflets but admits his organization was involved.
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ag
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« Reply #1216 on: April 17, 2014, 11:41:13 AM »

BBC reports Russia making calming statements about "de-escalation". This is really bad: this, probably, means invasion is going to happen really soon (whenever Puting says something seemingly informative, his intentions, usually, are exactly the opposite).
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1217 on: April 17, 2014, 11:44:36 AM »

Lavrov says a "deal" has been reached to disarm all militias. Broad national dialogue and amnesty for separatists who didn't commit capital crimes. Russia's position hasn't changed: reorder the country as we like or we'll do it for you.
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ag
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« Reply #1218 on: April 17, 2014, 12:08:32 PM »


No, that is not Russian position. Russian position is: Ukraine, for the moment, is Lviv; we might talk about Kiev - but we, probably, will not give up even that. Everything else is just to waste some more time.

Of course, once they get Kiev, they will go for Lviv as well.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #1219 on: April 17, 2014, 12:10:37 PM »


"Deal" confirmed by Kerry and Baroness Ashton.
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ag
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« Reply #1220 on: April 17, 2014, 04:29:10 PM »


Welcome to Munich, ladies and gentlemen.

Get ready for what follows.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #1221 on: April 17, 2014, 09:50:29 PM »

Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.

I doubt this is actually happening.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #1222 on: April 17, 2014, 10:03:50 PM »

Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.

I doubt this is actually happening.

It's happening, but the odds are it's free agents causing trouble for the local Jews, rather than any organized persecution by the government.
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ag
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« Reply #1223 on: April 18, 2014, 12:34:32 AM »

Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.

I doubt this is actually happening.

It's happening, but the odds are it's free agents causing trouble for the local Jews, rather than any organized persecution by the government.

Sure. For the moment the Russian government is not doing anything against the Jews as such - as long as they are loyal. Not that it would find anything objectionable in killing Jews (or, for that matter, Russians) if it somehow were useful for whatever other objectives it establishes. At this point, though, it isn't, and in that sense Putin is no Hitler - killing Jews is not a primary objective of intrinsic value for him.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #1224 on: April 18, 2014, 04:01:10 AM »

One does wonder how much in control the Russians actually are of the pro-Russian militants.
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