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GMantis
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« Reply #1400 on: June 08, 2014, 06:12:30 AM »

Some evidence regarding the cluster bomb claims (in Russian):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOQ6JckIYHc
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ag
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« Reply #1401 on: June 09, 2014, 08:44:24 PM »

1. Well, in quite a few cases we have of dead men identified, they had resigned from some Russian force days before coming to Ukraine to die.  Whatever that means. They are sending dead bodies to Russia by a truckload, BTW. Main Ukrainian export to the East these days. I do not know, why Russians want them.
Source for the truckloads?


Enjoy. http://echo.msk.ru/blog/maryautomne/1332306-echo/

There is more, if you are interested, but some of that is pretty graphic. Yandex груз 200, it will work.
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ag
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« Reply #1402 on: June 09, 2014, 08:48:42 PM »


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Considering that Russia has now very good reasons to intervene against Ukraine, but is still doing basically nothing, your assertions do not seem to be based on anything but paranoia. Or perhaps a desire to get attention, but I prefer not to speculate. Though I wonder what your explanation is for why this ultra-aggressive Russia decided to start the wars of expansion against a country that actually gave it a pretty good excuse to do and in one of the few places where a Russian intervention would be welcomed.

Very good reasons - that Russia itself has manufactured with great care. Had the Ukrainians done nothing, of course, if they behaved as they in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk would have long been incorporated into Russia and the same "polite men" would have been in Cherson and Odessa by now.


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ag
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« Reply #1403 on: June 09, 2014, 08:50:17 PM »


I've seen the cluster bombing reported quite a bit in foreign media. For example here in Bulgaria it was reported by Darik Radio which is about as right-wing and anti-Russian as you can get here.

You have missed the news. Most European fascists have switched to adoring Russia: the last Great White Hope of Europe.
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ag
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« Reply #1404 on: June 09, 2014, 08:53:33 PM »


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That's possible. It's also possible that they think that this would be going too and Russia's patience will finally run out. Or that they will lose planes - and considering the state of the Ukrainian army, that's not a minor worry. And when you look at the record of the Ukrainian army and the thugs pretending to be a National guard regarding civilian casualties, I don't think your arguments look especially convincing.

I did not get any of this, except something about "Russian patience". I think, it might be worth putting into a signature. Patience of a wolf with respect to the sheep that has the gall to try kicking. How dare it - it might hurt the babies.
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ag
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« Reply #1405 on: June 09, 2014, 08:57:42 PM »


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I don't exactly see how what Russia does excuse what Ukraine is doing (and it should be added that Russia was fighting actual terrorists). And the citizens in those regions were not in mortal danger until the Ukrainians began to "liberate" them (not to mention that they might not want to be liberated). It seems you are ignoring the Crimea, which despite being woefully deprived of a "liberation" campaign, suffered only three casualties. But I'm sure they're now envious there that the Donbas is about to be liberated Roll Eyes

I wonder, what would you consider adequate action, if Varna were occupied by the Russians who were going around killing people and staging extra-judicial executions.

Yes, Ukraine gave up Crimea without fight, because it hoped to avoid casualties. Its reward: Donetsk and Luhansk. If it did not resist there, it would have been Cherson and Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk and Charkiv, Sumy and Kyiv - and all the way to Lviv. So, they are resisting - how dare they.

Ukraine's basic excuse at this point is that it has given up its nukes back in the 1990s in exchange for "guarantees of territorial integrity". If it hadn't, it could have simply nuked Moscow - which would have been a proper response. But it cannot.
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ag
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« Reply #1406 on: June 09, 2014, 09:05:20 PM »


The brave Ukrainians, protectors of the free world! Roll Eyes Thanks, I needed a laugh. I should probably ask why you think that Russia would invade Bulgaria, but I see your non-response to Snowstalker, so it's pointless to try again, as you obviously don't have any rational arguments to support this idea. And the saying was about Poland, not Bulgaria.


Good, somebody still can laugh. I cannot anymore, I cry. We do not know, who is going to be next: but we know, that it only can be stopped by resistance. Unless the Russians feel the pain, they will go on. You are lucky to not have the common border: but that might be only a matter of time.

BTW, I hear your government has had the temerity to suspend the Southern Flow, hasnīt it? How dared it?
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Simfan34
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« Reply #1407 on: June 09, 2014, 09:06:11 PM »

It was sad to see the European leaders embrace Putin on the seventh as if nothing was wrong.
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ag
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« Reply #1408 on: June 09, 2014, 09:13:52 PM »


Regarding your ridiculous insinuation that I would want my country to be invaded, I probably should feel insulted but then I realized that you probably would like it very much if Russia was to be controlled by other countries, so it's not surprising that you're projecting your views on other people.

You really do not want Bulgaria to be returned into the fold? Then switch back on your eyes, your ears and your brain, and get to terms with what is going on. The largest European country has had a proper fascist regime installed, the regime bent on acquiring back what it considers lost. It is a clear and present danger to all around it. Not so much to myself - I live in one of the safest places there is out there in case the worst happens. But you do not have that luxury.

Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCsRaD-2uW0
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ag
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« Reply #1409 on: June 11, 2014, 11:55:45 PM »

One thing in which the Ukrainian government has been clearly delinquent is the refugee policy. It has been left to regions, really - very little is obviously done at the national level. And there has been a lot more done, it seems, about the Crimeans than about the Donetsk/Luhansk people (there the main preoccupation too frequently is that these may be infiltrators).

It goes beyond providing buses to take those who want to move (some public transportation still works in most places in any cas). At a minimum, what should have been done is creating an office in each regional capital responsible for temporary resettlement. A lot of the people in the affected regions are either retirees or state employees. They are left destitute in the worst-affected parts, which by itself prevents evacuation (for instance, in Slavyansk banks are closed and salaries/pensions are not being paid). The retirees should have been assisted in opening accounts in banks in locations of their choice.  State employees should have bee offered temporary transfers - even if, for the moment, there is no real job for them elsewhere. School year is over, fortunately, but schoolchildren also should be guaranteed places in schools. All evacuees should be paid some start-up money. Private companies should be offered tax incentives to hire them.
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GMantis
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« Reply #1410 on: June 12, 2014, 09:15:08 AM »
« Edited: June 12, 2014, 01:13:05 PM by GMantis »

Enjoy. http://echo.msk.ru/blog/maryautomne/1332306-echo/

There is more, if you are interested, but some of that is pretty graphic. Yandex груз 200, it will work.
Thank you for the source, though it doesn't in any way prove that current members of the Russian military are participating on the side of the insurgents.

Very good reasons - that Russia itself has manufactured with great care. Had the Ukrainians done nothing, of course, if they behaved as they in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk would have long been incorporated into Russia and the same "polite men" would have been in Cherson and Odessa by now.
Russia has not manufactured the multiple war crimes committed by the Ukrainian army or the national guard or the various other attacks upon pro-Russian Ukrainians. I don't know exactly what would have happened had the Ukrainians done nothing but at least it's certain that there would be far fewer civilian casualties and perhaps a peaceful solution would be possible.

You have missed the news. Most European fascists have switched to adoring Russia: the last Great White Hope of Europe.
I see that I was unclear. Darik radio is actually closely associated (or at least was) with UDF, the former main right-wing (and rabidly Russophobic) party.

I did not get any of this, except something about "Russian patience". I think, it might be worth putting into a signature. Patience of a wolf with respect to the sheep that has the gall to try kicking. How dare it - it might hurt the babies.
Under patience I meant not reacting to the behavior of the Ukrainian army over the last two months. Patience that might end if Ukrainian air-force starts openly bombing cities.
The comparison with the wolf and sheep is ridiculous, since the Ukrainians haven't actually attacked Russia in any way. The main brunt of their "liberation" war have been their own citizens.

I wonder, what would you consider adequate action, if Varna were occupied by the Russians who were going around killing people and staging extra-judicial executions.

Yes, Ukraine gave up Crimea without fight, because it hoped to avoid casualties. Its reward: Donetsk and Luhansk. If it did not resist there, it would have been Cherson and Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk and Charkiv, Sumy and Kyiv - and all the way to Lviv. So, they are resisting - how dare they.

Ukraine's basic excuse at this point is that it has given up its nukes back in the 1990s in exchange for "guarantees of territorial integrity". If it hadn't, it could have simply nuked Moscow - which would have been a proper response. But it cannot.
Inadvertently you're repeating a talking point made by our foolish president, making it even less persuasive Wink And while he at least had the excuse of political necessity of not naming a minority that was actually significant and likely to have problems with the majority, you don't
really do, so your argument is yet another wild fantasy without any relevance to the situation. Perhaps we can discuss next whether the Russians will be occupying Brighton Beach? Wink

I suggest that it was far more likely for Ukraine's abandonment of Crimea was the prospect of an unwinable fight with the actual Russian forces and the unreliability of their forces there (proven correct when most of them deserted the Ukrainian army). And the uprisings in Donetsk and Luhansk didn't come out of a vacuum but after a month of actions seemingly deliberately chosen to antagonize the local population.

And if you think that nuking Moscow was the proper response to Russia occupying an area where most inhabitants don't want to be part of Ukraine, then you have truly lost any rationality over this issue.

Good, somebody still can laugh. I cannot anymore, I cry. We do not know, who is going to be next: but we know, that it only can be stopped by resistance. Unless the Russians feel the pain, they will go on. You are lucky to not have the common border: but that might be only a matter of time.

BTW, I hear your government has had the temerity to suspend the Southern Flow, hasnīt it? How dared it?
What do you mean under pain? I hope it's not a nuclear attack, but after the last post I'm not too sure...

And your knowledge of Bulgaria's politics is sadly out of date, 25 years out of date to be precise. Nowadays the daring was in the government attempting to continue with South Stream after the Crimean crisis. But of course US ambassador eventually spoke against it and to hammer in the point, McCain and two other senators spoke with the prime minister in person on this issue. Of course, just in case he proved recalcitrant, the government suddenly collapsed just the day before...

You really do not want Bulgaria to be returned into the fold? Then switch back on your eyes, your ears and your brain, and get to terms with what is going on. The largest European country has had a proper fascist regime installed, the regime bent on acquiring back what it considers lost. It is a clear and present danger to all around it. Not so much to myself - I live in one of the safest places there is out there in case the worst happens. But you do not have that luxury.

Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCsRaD-2uW0
My brain is switched on. Otherwise I might have overlooked how your source for the truckloads of bodies was one of the most popular radio stations of a supposedly fascist country. Or perhaps this is your special definition of fascist which seems to include any regime you particularly dislike.
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ag
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« Reply #1411 on: June 12, 2014, 02:19:29 PM »

Enjoy. http://echo.msk.ru/blog/maryautomne/1332306-echo/

There is more, if you are interested, but some of that is pretty graphic. Yandex груз 200, it will work.


I just was about to repeat that I did acknowledge that these guys tended to have RESIGNED from the Russian security services - sometimes days or weeks before finding themselves in Ukraine, so "technically" you were right. However, as of today, it seems, you are wrong even on technicality (not that being "technically" correct ever mattered).

http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/446841/

Apparently, Russian anti-aircraft units have been protecting these tanks since the morning. This, by the way, is pretty deep inside Ukraine.

The war, of course, has been started and perpetuated BY the RUSSIANS. Nobody is even pretending otherwise - except in what goes for the consumption of some useful idiots in Europe. "Мы готовы умереть на развалинах Славянка, но с твердой верой, что наши убитые и раненые под безответным гаубичным огнем — не напрасные жертвы! И что мы не зря принесли с собой войну в этот прекрасный город и жертвы его населения тоже не напрасны!" This is not Ukrainian propaganda - this is His Excellency Comrade Strelkov, the Commander-in-Chief of the army of the Donetsk Republic in person (the gentleman, by the way, is a native of Moscow - he was a year senior to my wife in college - who had never lived anywhere near Donetsk). The victims are the victims of the Russians, whom you insist on defending. The war crimes are committed by the Russians - but, of course, as long as the war crimes are committed by true fascists you will always support them.
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GMantis
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« Reply #1412 on: June 12, 2014, 04:04:34 PM »

I just was about to repeat that I did acknowledge that these guys tended to have RESIGNED from the Russian security services - sometimes days or weeks before finding themselves in Ukraine, so "technically" you were right. However, as of today, it seems, you are wrong even on technicality (not that being "technically" correct ever mattered).

http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/446841/

Apparently, Russian anti-aircraft units have been protecting these tanks since the morning. This, by the way, is pretty deep inside Ukraine.
Any evidence that these tanks have been moved there from Russia and not captured from the Ukrainians, who apparently have a tank arsenal near Makeevka? They're also not Tanks currently used by the Russian army.

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The war was started by the Ukrainian army, unless you want to describe the capture of public buildings as war (which would make the overthrow of Yanukovych war as well, of course). And of course the Ukrainian side would never make such a statement, as they would hardly want it their mass usage of artillery against towns (which for example led to the destruction of much of Slavyansk) more widely known.

Regarding war crimes, are you going to deny that the Ukrainian side has committed them or that the Russians were somehow responsible? The first is bordering on the absurd on this point (see bombing by both artillery and planes of densely settled areas or the shooting at unarmed civilians) while the second seems close to outright to denial of reality (you don't even have the excuse of being misinformed, obviously).

As for fascism, you still haven't explained what you mean under fascism, so I'm going to assume it's your special brand of fascism, undetectable by anyone but yourself, but apparently so vile that it justifies any atrocities against the "fascists"
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ag
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« Reply #1413 on: June 12, 2014, 08:05:12 PM »
« Edited: June 12, 2014, 08:29:46 PM by ag »

Strongly nationalist repressive undemocratic regime, combining elements of personality cult of the National Leader, state capitalism (with private business and property rights operating at the pleasure of the Leader), servile judiciary, completely emasculated popular representation at all levels,   demonization of foreigners and selected minorities, marginalization of all opposition as "foreign agents", widespread use of criminal prosecution for political means, government control over most media (heavily used for internal propaganda purposes), strong expansionist demands towards neighbors, increasing militarization, expanded role of security services, use of extra-legal militarized formations by the government ... Should I continue? Any one of those or even a few together, perhaps, would not justify the "fascist" lable. But current Russian regime combines them all - and more. It is rapidly becoming a most classic fascist dictatorship - not recognizing it means either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty.

Anyway, the undisputed European fascists are in no doubt what they are facing. They all adore Mr. Putin - he is the one of them who got to live the dream.
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Meursault
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« Reply #1414 on: June 12, 2014, 08:14:59 PM »

Putinism is not fascist. It's lame national-conservatism.
- The fascist
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ag
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« Reply #1415 on: June 12, 2014, 08:28:18 PM »
« Edited: June 12, 2014, 08:32:34 PM by ag »

As war I am describing moving in a large number foreign agents into the country. There is not even a pretense that these were locals - all the top military commanders are Russians, with basically no history anywhere in Ukraine. For one of the first press-conferences they pushed out the one Ukrainian they had - and even that one has spent the last 20 years in Crimea (at one of the press-conferences he started crying that his family and childhood friends from his native village in Ukraine proper have been calling him, cursing him as a traitor: he said he would never forgive this to Ukrainian media).  They literally had nobody else with even a plausible Southern Russian - forget, Ukrainian - accent. I mean, they barely have any military commander of importance who pronounces the "gamma" as a "h" - this is not even Ukrainian, all the adjacent Russian provinces share this (remember one Mikhail Horbachev?).  It is true, the self-declared "political leaders" of the DNR and LNR are locals -  the most important of them previously known, mainly, for participating in pyramid schemes or for impersonating Santa Claus, almost none of them who had previously been involved in any sort of politics at all (unless you count getting a 100 votes while miserably losing in a city council election or other exploits of the same nature). Nor are they in control of anything in their "Republics" - they are puppets, whom the Russians arrest for any disagreement (the mother of the "people's mayor" of Slavyansk has been on TV crying that they have taken her son somewhere and she does not know where he is).  Strelkov has made speech after speech lambasting the locals for refusing to join in the Struggle: "we came in to fight for you, and you do not want to move a finger". Yes, a popular struggle it is.

These (well-armed) foreign agents occupy not merely public buildings, but military and police installations, distribute guns to local criminals (starting a waive of marauder attackes), arrest or otherwise disappear hundreds of local residents (some of whom are later found dead), declare extra-judicial executions (based on a Soviet decree from June 22, 1941 - I am not joking, this is the preamble to an execution list produced by Strelkov), confiscate private property (such as cars, houses, etc.) for "revolutionary needs", take over a chunk of the border, thorough which they increasingly receive military equipment....

Yes, it is not a war. It is a picnic by a group of polite Russian tourists, who are simply "reconstructing" some scenes from WWI. How could Ukrainians be so mistaken?
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Beet
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« Reply #1416 on: June 14, 2014, 05:37:27 PM »

Ukrainian plane shot down killing 49:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/14/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/
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MaxQue
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« Reply #1417 on: June 15, 2014, 01:24:55 PM »


Surely it's Ukrainians who did that to frame the Russians! It's impossible than the Russians liberators did it!
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GMantis
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« Reply #1418 on: June 17, 2014, 05:37:44 PM »

Really? That's the same regime that has allowed Chechnya to become a de-facto Islamic state, that allows local ethnic majorities to dominate over Russians (and even in some cases when they're not majorities) and that, if not encouraging it, takes a very tolerant view of immigration, both legal and illegal from Central Asia. Of course you might have your own definition of nationalism, like you do of antisemitism...

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Russia does not even come close in level of repression to many of the regimes in the region, so I don't quite see how that is evidence of fascism. The same is true of democracy (even if you claim that the elections are entirely rigged, which I doubt even you would do). Also, not many fascist regimes would allow the opposition to take over their third largest city (or have a non-imprisoned opposition in the first place).

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Most of the economy is in private hands, mostly obtained by very dubious means and except in a few who were too egregious in conspiring with foreign powers and trying to usurp power, preserved them under Putin. This looks more like robber, rather than state capitalism. And Putin's sway over the economy is actually pretty weak. For example, the Duma refused a few years to pass that would end foreign control over credit card operations, with predictable effects once banks started to be sanctioned.

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This is hardly something Putin introduced? And is a judiciary essentially controlled by oligarchs (as in the 90s) any better?

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The argument would be stronger if elections for regional governors hadn't been reintroduced recently.

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And these minorities are? It's certainly not any of the significant ones. You might have a point about foreigners but then again Russia has been demonized over a long time in foreign media, so a reaction is inevitable at this point.

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If a politician is financed by a foreign power (either directly or under the fiction of a "N"GO), why would that label be incorrect?

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Not really widespread against most political opposition. Then again that is hardly needed...

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Nice cop-out. But it would be absurd to argue that Mussolini or any other fascist would tolerate one of the most popular radio stations to be openly opposed to him, especially in the way that the Moscow Echo is.

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Preventing Georgia from retaking a region over which it has little claim other than being part of the Georgian SSR (which was never intended to be an independent state) and while attacking Russian citizens and peace-keepers or taking over a majority Russian peninsula that obviously supports joining Russia and to avoid a clear threat against them is not expansionism, but rather back to the wall defending of what few allies Russia has left.

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Also known as recovering from the disaster that was the Yeltzin era. What would you consider a properly strong army for Russia? One that is only good for peacekeeping missions?

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For example? And for the security service the same argument and question as above applies.

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I don't know what to call your distortions of the facts and strange reinterpretation of well defined terms, but it's probably not ignorance.

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While the Russian fascists - who probably are in a better position to judge than foreigners - have been very strongly against him.
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GMantis
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« Reply #1419 on: June 17, 2014, 06:17:20 PM »

As war I am describing moving in a large number foreign agents into the country.
This would hardly be a war even if they were government agents. For which there is scant evidence outside of Ukrainian propaganda. Most governments do not generally arrest their agents when they're carrying out their work.

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Actually, considering that Strelkov has complained multiple times that he's not receiving enough support from Russia, such a claim is hardly believable without a source.
In any case, especially clearly shown by their weapons, when the uprising started, nearly all insurgents were locals. If Russian citizens have arrived since then, they can hardly be blamed for starting it.
Also one wonders why if the local population was so opposed to the uprising they blocked  (in the beginning, before the usage of violence became indiscriminate) the Ukrainian army from advancing against the insurgents.

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So basically the same as the "freedom fighters" of the Maidan? And even if we accept these claims of mass execution, they occurred only after the "liberation war" had started?
As for the nationalizations, it is pretty obvious that they at least are not influenced by Moscow, as on these issues the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs can easily find a common language.

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Considering the not exactly impressive performance of the Ukrainian army so far, they would have lost Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts a long time ago if faced with "polite people" (ie well armed and trained Russian soldiers).

Also again a nice dodge of avoiding discussing the crimes committed in the process of "protecting" the local population by the Ukrainian forces.
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Nhoj
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« Reply #1420 on: July 05, 2014, 12:11:11 PM »

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28177020
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« Reply #1421 on: July 05, 2014, 05:12:04 PM »

They retreated from Sloviansk? That's quite significant. I wonder if this means the beginning of the end of the rebellion.
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1422 on: July 09, 2014, 07:10:04 PM »

Apparently Russia has sealed the border, some reports indicate barrier troops fired on rebels trying to flee into Russia. Circular firing squad among rebel leaders was found on tape yesterday. Today Ukraine suggested it's partly about divvying up $$$. Gubarev said this morning victory or death.

Interesting theory about whether the campaign to discredit Strelkov has been a Surkov production, with a "Donetsk Transdniestria" as the goal.
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #1423 on: July 10, 2014, 07:25:54 PM »

Ukrainian military retook Karlivka, 20km from Donetsk. Rebels are trying to evacuate Donetsk. Ukrainians say they foiled a rebel plot in Odessa.

Buzzfeed found documents showing how rebel "justice" involved a WWII decree of Stalin's. In this particular case, summary execution for stealing clothes.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #1424 on: July 12, 2014, 11:20:47 PM »

Ukrainian air offensive kills 1,000 rebels.
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