Ukraine Crisis

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The problem is, you know, all parts involved are capitalists, and they don't want to stop making business with anyone. And Western governments have stripped themselves of the powers to force them to do so. So no economic sanction of any sort (like the banning of planes, ships and so on that you proposed) will be implemented by airlines, port authorities...

As for UEFA banning : do you really think UEFA is anywhere near a politically responsible organism ? Next football World Cup is staged in Russia and you think UEFA will ban the Russian Federation ? I ask this with all the kindness I can, and sincerely : are you deluded or do you really believe the measures you propose can actually realistically be implemented ?

The truth is, nobody in the West gives a sh**t if Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, even if it gobbles up the whole of Ukraine for that matter. As long as we don't get into a war and can do business. Munich spirit is strong.

So far, it is the French socialists that are the most willing to make trade, not war.  Especially, if that trade is in French- built assault ships.

Since you like to refer to the Munich agreements, I want to remind you that it was a failure from the UK and France to respect a military agreement with Czechoslovakia.
In the case of Crimea, it's the US and the UK who have an agreement to defend Ukraine's territorial integrity, and who are failing to respect it. So go first, we'll follow (maybe ).

I fully agree. But I am Mexican, not American. BTW, it was Mexico that was the only country to protest against the Anschluss in the League of Nations.

You'd think Peru would have been an early enemy of Germany and Austria teaming up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peru_4%E2%80%932_Austria_(1936_Summer_Olympics_association_football)

[Gustaf]

So, Barroso says Putin told him "I can take Kiev in 2 weeks if I want to". WTF.

[swl]

He's right. We have all seen how bad is the Ukrainian army. Even the volunteer battalions fighting with kalashnikov are better. So he can. The only question is whether he wants.

[ag]

He's right. We have all seen how bad is the Ukrainian army. Even the volunteer battalions fighting with kalashnikov are better. So he can. The only question is whether he wants.

Ukrainian army would not hold. But it would spark a major partisan resistance.

[Person Man]

One interview-like question-

Where does Putin see Russia in 2024? What does he want the map to look like?

Does he just want Southeastern Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Georgia? Does he want more? Some people said he wants to reannex the Baltics and Kazakhstan.

Basically, that Putin wants to rebuild Russia as a fascist Slavic Orthodox state.

[MATTROSE94]

One interview-like question-

Where does Putin see Russia in 2024? What does he want the map to look like?

I am probably partially wrong in my analysis, but I would assume that Putin would like to see Russia absorb all of Ukraine, Estonia, Georgia and Poland over the next decade or so.

[Cory]

One interview-like question-

Where does Putin see Russia in 2024? What does he want the map to look like?

I am probably partially wrong in my analysis, but I would assume that Putin would like to see Russia absorb all of Ukraine, Estonia, Georgia and Poland over the next decade or so.

I don't think the Russians could ever annex/clientize Poland without a major war. Replace Estonia and Poland with Belarus and Kazakhstan (The Kazakhs being puppetized, not annexed).

[swl]

I think Putin would dream to keep the USSR influence, just without communism. He does not need to annex these countries, just having them as vassal states would be enough.

So:

Armenia   
Azerbaijan   
Belarus   
Estonia   
Georgia   
Kazakhstan   
Kyrgyzstan   
Latvia   
Lithuania   
Moldova   
Tajikistan   
Turkmenistan   
Ukraine   
Uzbekistan   

Being in the NATO and the EU, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are lost for good, they are untouchable. All the rest is still somehow keepable, and these countries are at different degrees under Russian influence. Some are trying to break free (Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine...), some are still real russian vassal states (Belarus for example).

What many fail to take into account is that the russian sphere of influence has been continuously decreasing for more than 20 years, and that all of Putin wars are about saving what can be saved. The consequence is that we should allow him to do so instead of risking a full scale war for territories that will anyway drift away from Russia in 10 years.

[Person Man]

Maybe his goal is to revive the USSR minus the Baltic states into a fascist version of something between the CSA and EU, in terms of cohesion?

[swl]

I don't think there is any ideology behind it. Russia is trying to preserve its sphere of influence, and to be fair everyone does the same.

The main problem is that while Western countries now more or less accept the right to self-determination, Russia is still ready to go at war to keep what it sees as "its playground". France was there 50 years ago with its colonies.

(An analogy would be that Westerners are now trying to find partners by being attractive, while unattractive Russia still uses rape.)

[Person Man]

I don't think there is any ideology behind it. Russia is trying to preserve its sphere of influence, and to be fair everyone does the same.

The main problem is that while Western countries now more or less accept the right to self-determination, Russia is still ready to go at war to keep what it sees as "its playground". France was there 50 years ago with its colonies.

(An analogy would be that Westerners are now trying to find partners by being attractive, while unattractive Russia still uses rape.)

In your mind Putin is more like Borat than Hitler?

[ag]

I don't think there is any ideology behind it. Russia is trying to preserve its sphere of influence, and to be fair everyone does the same.

The main problem is that while Western countries now more or less accept the right to self-determination, Russia is still ready to go at war to keep what it sees as "its playground". France was there 50 years ago with its colonies.

(An analogy would be that Westerners are now trying to find partners by being attractive, while unattractive Russia still uses rape.)

In your mind Putin is more like Borat than Hitler?

Well, he is what Borat was the caricature of.

Seriously, Putin is decent at tactics. I am not sure he has a full strategy, a set of well-defined objectives, or anything of the sort. He definitely wants to get as much as possible - as much as the West would give him. How much? I am not even sure he himself knows at this point.

[Beet]

The WSJ journal says only "modest" sanctions are being considered:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/european-union-to-decide-on-russia-sanctions-by-friday-1409654982

While Russia claims that the Czechs object to even that:

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140903/192578268/Czech-Republic-Disagrees-With-New-EU-Sanctions-Against-Russia.html

Meanwhile in the U.S., Gazprom bank has hired Trent Lott and John Breaux to lobby for previously imposed sanctions to be lifted:

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/09/gazprom-bank-hire-senator-trent-lott-john-breaux-lobby-110522.html?hp=r5

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The WSJ journal says only "modest" sanctions are being considered:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/european-union-to-decide-on-russia-sanctions-by-friday-1409654982

While Russia claims that the Czechs object to even that:

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140903/192578268/Czech-Republic-Disagrees-With-New-EU-Sanctions-Against-Russia.html

Meanwhile in the U.S., Gazprom bank has hired Trent Lott and John Breaux to lobby for previously imposed sanctions to be lifted:

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/09/gazprom-bank-hire-senator-trent-lott-john-breaux-lobby-110522.html?hp=r5

Lott and Breaux prove yet again that they are HPs.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Today's Scandinavia and the World is somewhat humorous, tho not really accurate since Russia isn't admitting its obvious involvement.  I think I've realized why Putin bothers with such lies.  It's been said before in this thread that to solve this situation we need to find some way to allow Putin to save face.  Putin's lies are his effort to allow the West to save face.  We merely need accept the lies and then it is possible for us to accept the result.  Problem is, while it has worked before, the act has grown stale.  You know the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me;" well Putin's trying to fool at least a third time.  Sad thing is, if he'd just waited a few years as had with Georgia, and waited until 2018 or so to take Novorossiya instead of trying to take it right after taking Ukraine, he might have gotten the West to swallow the lie.

[Deus Naturae]

US troops head to Ukraine.

[Tender Branson]

The Austrian newspaper "Standard" says that something like a "permanent peace/ceasefire deal" has been agreed on, effective tomorrow.

Both Poroshenko and the rebels have agreed.

http://derstandard.at

[ag]

The Austrian newspaper "Standard" says that something like a "permanent peace/ceasefire deal" has been agreed on, effective tomorrow.

Both Poroshenko and the rebels have agreed.

http://derstandard.at

It will preserve peace for our time. That is, if we are very lucky, for around 12 months.

Ukrainians do not have a choice: they are left naked. It is the rest of us I am wondering about.

[Simfan34]

US troops head to Ukraine.

Long overdue.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

"peacekeeping"

Make no mistake, this is two imperialist blocs (NATO and Russia) jockeying for control of natural gas production; Ukraine is an important proxy location as a major pipeline location. It seems now that Russia has at least the economic backing of China with their new gas deals.

[Person Man]

US troops head to Ukraine.

Long overdue.

Mmm  hmmm...

[Simfan34]

"peacekeeping"

Make no mistake, this is two imperialist blocs (NATO and Russia) jockeying for control of natural gas production; Ukraine is an important proxy location as a major pipeline location. It seems now that Russia has at least the economic backing of China with their new gas deals.

This is new.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

"peacekeeping"

Make no mistake, this is two imperialist blocs (NATO and Russia) jockeying for control of natural gas production; Ukraine is an important proxy location as a major pipeline location. It seems now that Russia has at least the economic backing of China with their new gas deals.

This is new.

World War I started due to competition between the British and German markets. World War III will start when the will of Western markets on one side and Sino-Russian markets on the other to dominate takes over the will to mutually trade, even if for a single impulsive moment.

[Simfan34]

Ah, so I see you've fully embraced the "wars are fought for the sake of parasitical Capital" theory of conflict.

[Deus Naturae]

"peacekeeping"

Make no mistake, this is two imperialist blocs (NATO and Russia) jockeying for control of natural gas production; Ukraine is an important proxy location as a major pipeline location. It seems now that Russia has at least the economic backing of China with their new gas deals.

This is new.

World War I started due to competition between the British and German markets. World War III will start when the will of Western markets on one side and Sino-Russian markets on the other to dominate takes over the will to mutually trade, even if for a single impulsive moment.

"Markets" don't compete. Market actors compete. Feel free to add to the list, but the only major market actors I can think that would want to end the US-China trade relationship would be American manufacturers and labor unions. So, are you saying manufacturers and labor unions will start WWIII? If so, how?

No doubt China wants to take down the US, but they have no reason to do so militarily when they can do so economically. Buying up Treasuries and promoting de-dollarization via direct bilateral trade and currency swap agreements (you mention the gas deals with Russia) are perfectly good strategies to end USD monetary hegemony and bring the US to its knees via debt and inflation.