Ukraine Crisis

[ag]

Above Trot confirmed for being to Snowstalker what Snowstalker is to TNF.

I'm a bloody Anarcho-Syndicalist!

No, you are not. If you were, you would hate Putin, etc.  You seem to love all that is statist, imperialist, etc. There is nothing that is more anti-ancarchist then Putin´s Russia.

I do hate him, but I just prefer right wing autocracy to fascism. And hold on, imperialism? wut.

Then why do you support a fascist autocart in his invasion into a neighboring country led by a democratically elected anti-fascist government?

Imperialism is a proper word here: Putin is trying to reestablish the Empire Russia lost in 1991.

No, just no.

What, you do not support a fascist autocrat? That is the best joke I've heard in a long time.

[Murica!]

Above Trot confirmed for being to Snowstalker what Snowstalker is to TNF.

I'm a bloody Anarcho-Syndicalist!

No, you are not. If you were, you would hate Putin, etc.  You seem to love all that is statist, imperialist, etc. There is nothing that is more anti-ancarchist then Putin´s Russia.

I do hate him, but I just prefer right wing autocracy to fascism. And hold on, imperialism? wut.

Then why do you support a fascist autocart in his invasion into a neighboring country led by a democratically elected anti-fascist government?

Imperialism is a proper word here: Putin is trying to reestablish the Empire Russia lost in 1991.

No, just no.

What, you do not support a fascist autocrat? That is the best joke I've heard in a long time.

So the National(ist) Guard bombs and murders civilians(including members of my family) and that's considered anti-fascist?

[ag]

The Junta? I'd like to see the evidence of military leadership in that new government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_and_Defense_Council_of_Ukraine
Not to mention the government lowering spending everywhere but the military which it has been increasing.

Well, that is a Council. Happy to hear you know how to translate "Rada" into Spanish. But you were asked about military leadership. And that one is sadly lucking here. The Council is convoked by the president, who is an elected civilian, whose only connection with the military is 2 years of service as a conscript in the Soviet Army back in the 1980s. Its other members are:

1. Interior minister. True - he is a son of a Soviet officer, an ethnic Armenian born in Baku, so could be an occupant No other obvious link to any military. Career politician for many years.
2. Head of the Central Bank - female, no obvious link to any military, from Eastern Ukraine.
3. Parliamentary speaker - Jewish, businessman, career politician, no obvious link to any military.
4. Foreign secretary, ethnic Russian, born and grew up in Russia, moved to Ukraine after college, a mathematician by training, career diplomat thereafter, no obvious link to any military.
5. Head of the presidential administration - ethnic Russian, a teacher of Russian language and literature by education, rich businessman, from Eastern Ukraine, no obvious link to any military.
6. Justice Minister - lawyer, no obvious link to any military.
7. Chairman of the Supreme Court - lawyer, no obvious link to any military, holds his post since Yanukovich years.
8. Minister of Information - journalist, no obvious link to any military.
9. Secretary of the Council - career politician from Eastern Ukraine, Baptist, no obvious link to any military.
10. Prime Minister - career politician, no obvious link to any military.

So, including the president 11 civilians (some might have been conscripts in their day). Now the ranks:

1. Head of Foreign Intelligence. Lieutenant General.
2. Chief of Staff. Colonel General
3. Head of Security Service. Security service oficer (not sure of rank, but yeah, started in the KGB)
4. Defense Minister. Colonel General.
5. Prosecutor General. Police Lieutenant General (retired).

So, the National Security Council has 11 civillians and 5 officers (one of those retired). The officers are no-namers, appointed by the civillians and frequently replaced. I bet, you can find many a primary school parent council that has more soldiers on it. Well, in Spanish it would be "Junta de padres de familia".

[ag]

Above Trot confirmed for being to Snowstalker what Snowstalker is to TNF.

I'm a bloody Anarcho-Syndicalist!

No, you are not. If you were, you would hate Putin, etc.  You seem to love all that is statist, imperialist, etc. There is nothing that is more anti-ancarchist then Putin´s Russia.

I do hate him, but I just prefer right wing autocracy to fascism. And hold on, imperialism? wut.

Then why do you support a fascist autocart in his invasion into a neighboring country led by a democratically elected anti-fascist government?

Imperialism is a proper word here: Putin is trying to reestablish the Empire Russia lost in 1991.

No, just no.

What, you do not support a fascist autocrat? That is the best joke I've heard in a long time.

So the National(ist) Guard bombs and murders civilians(including members of my family) and that's considered anti-fascist?

Well, you do not mind when their opponents bomb and murder civilians en masse, because that is most certainly anti-fascist. Killing children must be a laudable activity in your eyes - as long as it is the Russians who are doing the killing.

And, of course, Massachussetts Nationalist Guard is a fascist organization - why else would they call it Massachussetts Nationalist Guard?

[Murica!]

Above Trot confirmed for being to Snowstalker what Snowstalker is to TNF.

I'm a bloody Anarcho-Syndicalist!

No, you are not. If you were, you would hate Putin, etc.  You seem to love all that is statist, imperialist, etc. There is nothing that is more anti-ancarchist then Putin´s Russia.

I do hate him, but I just prefer right wing autocracy to fascism. And hold on, imperialism? wut.

Then why do you support a fascist autocart in his invasion into a neighboring country led by a democratically elected anti-fascist government?

Imperialism is a proper word here: Putin is trying to reestablish the Empire Russia lost in 1991.

No, just no.

What, you do not support a fascist autocrat? That is the best joke I've heard in a long time.

So the National(ist) Guard bombs and murders civilians(including members of my family) and that's considered anti-fascist?

Well, you do not mind when their opponents bomb and murder civilians en masse, because that is most certainly anti-fascist. Killing children must be a laudable activity in your eyes - as long as it is the Russians who are doing the killing.

And, of course, Massachussetts Nationalist Guard is a fascist organization - why else would they call it Massachussetts Nationalist Guard?

Exactly who did the People's Republics bomb and kill except the Fascists?

[ag]

Above Trot confirmed for being to Snowstalker what Snowstalker is to TNF.

I'm a bloody Anarcho-Syndicalist!

No, you are not. If you were, you would hate Putin, etc.  You seem to love all that is statist, imperialist, etc. There is nothing that is more anti-ancarchist then Putin´s Russia.

I do hate him, but I just prefer right wing autocracy to fascism. And hold on, imperialism? wut.

Then why do you support a fascist autocart in his invasion into a neighboring country led by a democratically elected anti-fascist government?

Imperialism is a proper word here: Putin is trying to reestablish the Empire Russia lost in 1991.

No, just no.

What, you do not support a fascist autocrat? That is the best joke I've heard in a long time.

So the National(ist) Guard bombs and murders civilians(including members of my family) and that's considered anti-fascist?

Well, you do not mind when their opponents bomb and murder civilians en masse, because that is most certainly anti-fascist. Killing children must be a laudable activity in your eyes - as long as it is the Russians who are doing the killing.

And, of course, Massachussetts Nationalist Guard is a fascist organization - why else would they call it Massachussetts Nationalist Guard?

Exactly who did the People's Republics bomb and kill except the Fascists?

Hundreds (probably, thousands, by now) of civillians in their zone of operation, perhaps? Or are they shooting soap bubbles?

Of course, everyone - even a baby - is a fascist, if he dares to be on the other side of the front lines, or even if he simply happens to be killed by shelling from YOUR side wherever he is. He should not have been there - only a fascist would have himself killed by the белые и пушистые "soldiers of the People's Republics". They all deliberately die for fascist propaganda, no doubt.

[Murica!]

Above Trot confirmed for being to Snowstalker what Snowstalker is to TNF.

I'm a bloody Anarcho-Syndicalist!

No, you are not. If you were, you would hate Putin, etc.  You seem to love all that is statist, imperialist, etc. There is nothing that is more anti-ancarchist then Putin´s Russia.

I do hate him, but I just prefer right wing autocracy to fascism. And hold on, imperialism? wut.

Then why do you support a fascist autocart in his invasion into a neighboring country led by a democratically elected anti-fascist government?

Imperialism is a proper word here: Putin is trying to reestablish the Empire Russia lost in 1991.

No, just no.

What, you do not support a fascist autocrat? That is the best joke I've heard in a long time.

So the National(ist) Guard bombs and murders civilians(including members of my family) and that's considered anti-fascist?

Well, you do not mind when their opponents bomb and murder civilians en masse, because that is most certainly anti-fascist. Killing children must be a laudable activity in your eyes - as long as it is the Russians who are doing the killing.

And, of course, Massachussetts Nationalist Guard is a fascist organization - why else would they call it Massachussetts Nationalist Guard?

Exactly who did the People's Republics bomb and kill except the Fascists?

Hundreds (probably, thousands, by now) of civillians in their zone of operation, perhaps? Or are they shooting soap bubbles?

Of course, everyone - even a baby - is a fascist, if he dares to be on the other side of the front lines, or even if he happens to be killed by shelling from YOUR side. He should not have been there - only a fascist would have himself killed by the белые и пушистые "soldiers of the People's Republics".

No soldier is white and fluffy but Ukraine is much worse then the DPR/LPR, but I'm not arguing anymore because I know what's going on.

[ag]

No soldier is white and fluffy but Ukraine is much worse then the DPR/LPR, but I'm not arguing anymore because I know what's going on.

I have no doubt, you know. Exactly like the German citizens knew the Jews were to blame for WWII. Of course, the FUHRER said so - and he could not be wrong.

[ag]

BTW, you also apparently know of some Junta somewher in Ukraine. When challenged the first time you provided a link to a civillian council with minor ex-oficio military participation. Would you mind exhibiting your knowledge  and actually standing by your words? Perhaps there is some other junta over there we do not know about?

[Murica!]

BTW, you also apparently know of some Junta somewher in Ukraine. When challenged the first time you provided a link to a civillian council with minor ex-oficio military participation. Would you mind exhibiting your knowledge  and actually standing by your words? Perhaps there is some other junta over there we do not know about?

Actually that I mistranslated and didn't check who was on it. The one I was talking about has the guy who looks like a pig leading it.

[ag]

BTW, you also apparently know of some Junta somewher in Ukraine. When challenged the first time you provided a link to a civillian council with minor ex-oficio military participation. Would you mind exhibiting your knowledge  and actually standing by your words? Perhaps there is some other junta over there we do not know about?

Actually that I mistranslated and didn't check who was on it. The one I was talking about has the guy who looks like a pig leading it.

Ah, ok. So not only it is not a military, but also not a council. Who cares, though? Words for you do not mean anything. They are noise waives sent in random directions for our enjoyment.

The sky is green, and that means that an elephant rabbit in Bujumbura shat a secretary general of the Capitalist Warty of Mars, would you agree?

[ag]

BTW, you also apparently know of some Junta somewher in Ukraine. When challenged the first time you provided a link to a civillian council with minor ex-oficio military participation. Would you mind exhibiting your knowledge  and actually standing by your words? Perhaps there is some other junta over there we do not know about?

Actually that I mistranslated and didn't check who was on it. The one I was talking about has the guy who looks like a pig leading it.

BTW, which language did you "mistranslate" what from? Spanish, Russian, Ukrainian? I speak the first two and understand the third pretty well, and I have no clue where the "mistranslation" could come from. Or, perhaps, you have mistranslated the word "mistranslated" as well?

[BaconBacon96]

As a Libertarian I hate Putin. I also hate the fact that people seriously care about Crimea. I don't want to defend Putin, but what he does in Russia's sperhe of influence isn't a serious threat unless he invades a NATO country.

Spheres of influence are an outdated concept IMO. Bigger nations shouldn't be entitled to harass smaller nations that happen to be nearby. If Ukraine wants to ally with the US, it should be allowed to do so without fear of invasion, just as any Central or South American nation should be allowed to ally with Russia without fear of American attack.

[MaxQue]

Well, at least, they are vocal, so the government can watch them and lock them if they try to do sabotage during a war.

God forbid. The should either be ignored, or made fun of. Nothing more.

The key word is "if they try to do sabotage".

[Simfan34]

As a Libertarian I hate Putin. I also hate the fact that people seriously care about Crimea. I don't want to defend Putin, but what he does in Russia's sperhe of influence isn't a serious threat unless he invades a NATO country.

As a libertarian you should know the Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has the right to align itself in any way its people so choose. If you want to condemn "CIA interventions" in Latin America then I don't see you cannot object to Russia intervening in the Ukraine. And, well, hating about people caring? One would think you'd be bothered by the Ukrainian people being deprived of their liberties.

[Simfan34]

It's a little unnerving how effective the Kremlin's propaganda has been in swaying the opinions of impressionable young Americans.

There was a good article in Politico on this a few weeks ago:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Cory]

Murica!'s posts are a perfect example of what we're talking about. The utter delusion and outright refusal to have any kind of objectivity. Literally taking everything Russia says as gospel and denying any information to the contrary.

It's like the people in the 1930's who insisted that Germany had the right to claim the Sudetenland and that the Czechs were "oppressing Germans".

I can hear him now:

"Hitler and Germany are just trying to save their people from the yoke of Anglo-French Imperialism!"

"The Czechs are massacring Germans! I'm not arguing anymore because I know what's going on!"

[jaichind]

As a Libertarian I hate Putin. I also hate the fact that people seriously care about Crimea. I don't want to defend Putin, but what he does in Russia's sperhe of influence isn't a serious threat unless he invades a NATO country.

As a libertarian you should know the Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has the right to align itself in any way its people so choose. If you want to condemn "CIA interventions" in Latin America then I don't see you cannot object to Russia intervening in the Ukraine. And, well, hating about people caring? One would think you'd be bothered by the Ukrainian people being deprived of their liberties.

I view Crimea 2014 the same as Kosovo 1998.  I am very negative on both events and in an equal way.  I think both the West and Russia are hypocritical when they criticize each other for these two events before hold themselves accountable for their on actions on the other.

[ag]

As a Libertarian I hate Putin. I also hate the fact that people seriously care about Crimea. I don't want to defend Putin, but what he does in Russia's sperhe of influence isn't a serious threat unless he invades a NATO country.

As a libertarian you should know the Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has the right to align itself in any way its people so choose. If you want to condemn "CIA interventions" in Latin America then I don't see you cannot object to Russia intervening in the Ukraine. And, well, hating about people caring? One would think you'd be bothered by the Ukrainian people being deprived of their liberties.

I view Crimea 2014 the same as Kosovo 1998.  I am very negative on both events and in an equal way.  I think both the West and Russia are hypocritical when they criticize each other for these two events before hold themselves accountable for their on actions on the other.

There is a fundamental difference, though. In fact, there is pretty much nothing in common between the situations.

Before 1998 Kosovo spent almost a decade in a limbo, with the bulk of the population completely disenfranchized and marginalized, not participating in economic, political or social life of the province.  For much of that time the community adhered to its leaders´ call for peaceful civil disobedience - which got them exactly nowhere. Then, when some hotheads dropped the peaceful from their disobedience, Serbian government responded with a massive ethnic cleansing campaign, creating a staggering refugee flow. At this point, an international force was brought in. However, none of the contributors to the force had any designs on any territory (or really wanted to be there in the first place - they had spent 10 years ignoring the problem as much as they could). Nor was the neighboring country, with ethnically similar population, allowed to benefit in any way from what was happening (except in as much as it was spared a nightmare of a refugee crisis). Afterwards, there was a long - though, ultimately unsuccessful - process of negotiations, culminating in a freshly elected legislature pronouncing for independence.

In contrast, Crimea had spent 23 years enjoying the widest autnomy, being the only Ukrainian province without an appointed governor (the PM of Crimea was throughout this time appointed by the locally elected legislature). Unlike in Kosovo, where all public Albanian schools had been closed, Simferopol (Crimean capital) had exactly one Ukrainian-language school - every single other schoold taught in Russian. Throughout this period in regular free elections Crimeans voted en masse for parties, which frequently formed governments in Kiev. At the same time, parties and candidates advocating secession got negligible numbers of votes. Then, with the entire peninsula completely free of any civil or military disturbance, troops from a neighboring country (in unmarked uniforms) entered the territory, expelled and/or intimidated a substantial number of local legislators, had the rump legislature designate as local leaders those same loser sessessionist candidates and call for a referendum on joining the neighboring country. In the referendum there was no option allowed to vote for the status quo, nor was, apparently, the vote counted at all (the numbers published were clearly fake). Afterwards the country was annexed to the troop-providing neighbor - only at which point the neighbor acknowledged that it did send the troops.

Anybody sees any similarities?

[Beet]

It looks like they're attacking Mariupol now.

Meanwhile, apparently the sanctions passed by the E.U. last year are not dependent on the situation on the ground but automatically expire after 1 year? No wonder Putin is so confident... he just has to get Hungary with him, and all this with no real costs.

[politicus]

New ceasefire (brokered by Merkel and Hollande) as starting point for peace plan.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/12/ukraine-ceasefire-european-leaders-sceptical-peace-plan-will-work


"The main points of the agreement

    Ceasefire to begin at 00.00am local time on 15 February
    Heavy weapons withdrawn in a two week period starting from 17 February
    Amnesty for prisoners involved in fighting
    Withdrawal of all foreign militias from Ukrainian territory and the disarmament of all illegal groups
    Lifting of restrictions in rebel areas of Ukraine
    Decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015
    Ukrainian control of the border with Russia by the end of 2015

The participants also agreed to attend regular meetings ​​to ensure the fulfilment of the ​​agreements, ​a Russian-distributed document said."

[Murica!]

Hopefully no one fu**s this up.

[ag]

Hopefully no one fu**s this up.

Well, if we are lucky, we will have a month or two of relatively little shooting. May be, if we are very lucky, it will even be three months, but I have hard time believing it.

[Famous Mortimer]

Anybody know the reason for the fist fight today between the Fatherland MP and the Self Reliance MP?

[Murica!]

Anybody know the reason for the fist fight today between the Fatherland MP and the Self Reliance MP?

Ukrainian politics, same as any brawl in the Rada.