Ukraine Crisis

[Famous Mortimer]

Well in the past fights were always pro-Russian vs. pro-Western.

This time it's two pro-Western parties.

I've heard that it's over an anti-corruption bill but nothing more than that. If I had to guess, I would guess that the Fatherland party is against it?

[Murica!]

Well in the past fights were always pro-Russian vs. pro-Western.

This time it's two pro-Western parties.

I've heard that it's over an anti-corruption bill but nothing more than that. If I had to guess, I would guess that the Fatherland party is against it?

This really isn't true about Self Reliance, though they aren't fascists or far-rightists they are quite nationalist and not really "pro-western" more "anti-Russian".

[Beet]

Looks like they're still fighting out there.

[politicus]

Looks like they're still fighting out there.

"Ceasefire to begin at 00.00am local time on 15 February"

[jaichind]

Looks like Russian backed rebels are now inside the encircled key railway junction of Debaltseve.  If so then the Ukrainian military is looking at a major military defeat with the possible loss of thousands of possibility encircled troops (Ukraine military denied they are encircled although the Russian backed rebels claim they are) 

[Cory]

It's time to start actually confronting Russia not just on this, but in total. Our long-term objective needs to be the destruction of the Putin regime and Ultra-Nationalism in Russia outright. The problem with 1991 was that there was no "De-Sovietization". Just internal political collapse and the establishment of Wiemar Russia. It was like 1918 all over again. And now we see the (predictable) outcome.

It's time for a new Fulton speech. We need to recognize that there is a global Russian threat that intends to undermine the current world order in favor of their Eurasianist agenda. This threat has military, economic, social, and political dimensions to it. Everything from Gazprom, the Russian mafia, and RT news network. If not publicly then internally we need to accept that these entities and those like them are enemy agencies in the new Cold War, and treat them as such.

We need to accept that the Putin regime is a neo-fascist state that is inherently a threat to the pace, freedom and stability of the entire world. Including it's own citizens. The struggle is upon us, and the free nations of the world need to unite and answer the call.

[ingemann]

Russia is a great power with enough nuclear weapons to leave USA as smoldering glass covered wasteland. Yes it would be nice if we could treat it as a defeated enemy or some Middle Eastern or third world sh**thole. We can't and we should accept that and look into how we need to deal with Russia (like remobilise).

[Cory]

Russia is a great power with enough nuclear weapons to leave USA as smoldering glass covered wasteland. Yes it would be nice if we could treat it as a defeated enemy or some Middle Eastern or third world sh**thole. We can't and we should accept that and look into how we need to deal with Russia (like remobilise).

I never said we should initiate a shooting war with Russia. Containment followed by RollBack should be the policy. But my main point was hat we should treat this as the threat it actually is.

The Soviet Union had a powerful nuclear arsenal too, but that didn't stop us from doing what it took to win.

[ingemann]

Russia is a great power with enough nuclear weapons to leave USA as smoldering glass covered wasteland. Yes it would be nice if we could treat it as a defeated enemy or some Middle Eastern or third world sh**thole. We can't and we should accept that and look into how we need to deal with Russia (like remobilise).

I never said we should initiate a shooting war with Russia. Containment followed by RollBack should be the policy. But my main point was hat we should treat this as the threat it actually is.

The Soviet Union had a powerful nuclear arsenal too, but that didn't stop us from doing what it took to win.

'

USA and the rest of NATO did nothing to win, we just contained USSR until it collapsed under it own wrong economical policies, public opposition and demographic change. That's the logical policy to follow with Russia, to contain it and we have succesful done so, even if wasn't completely aware of it, with the expansion of NATO and EU to the east. Now Russia have lost one of its most important client states and instead they have gotten Crimea and a pathetic puppet in eastern Ukraine.

[ag]

Russia is a great power with enough nuclear weapons to leave USA as smoldering glass covered wasteland. Yes it would be nice if we could treat it as a defeated enemy or some Middle Eastern or third world sh**thole. We can't and we should accept that and look into how we need to deal with Russia (like remobilise).

I never said we should initiate a shooting war with Russia. Containment followed by RollBack should be the policy. But my main point was hat we should treat this as the threat it actually is.

The Soviet Union had a powerful nuclear arsenal too, but that didn't stop us from doing what it took to win.

'

USA and the rest of NATO did nothing to win, we just contained USSR until it collapsed under it own wrong economical policies, public opposition and demographic change. That's the logical policy to follow with Russia, to contain it and we have succesful done so, even if wasn't completely aware of it, with the expansion of NATO and EU to the east. Now Russia have lost one of its most important client states and instead they have gotten Crimea and a pathetic puppet in eastern Ukraine.

Well, containment should be firmer. The last time I checked Russian trains still could get to Kaliningrad.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Well, containment should be firmer. The last time I checked Russian trains still could get to Kaliningrad.

Do you really want a Kaliningrad Airlift?

Besides, until Europe has a replacement for Russian natural gas in place, there's not much more that will be done.

[ag]

Well, containment should be firmer. The last time I checked Russian trains still could get to Kaliningrad.

Do you really want a Kaliningrad Airlift?

Yes, I do. It costs money. And the money spent on Kaliningrad Airlift is not spent elsewhere.

[ag]

Besides, until Europe has a replacement for Russian natural gas in place, there's not much more that will be done.

Energy prices are at record low. And, of course, Russia that does not sell gas will not be able to finance the Kaliningrad Airlift.

[Cory]

Do you really want a Kaliningrad Airlift?

Yes, I do. It costs money. And the money spent on Kaliningrad Airlift is not spent elsewhere.

Perfect. Exactly the mentality I think we should exercise in regards to Russia.

[ag]

There are a few other things that could be done. Sanction every airline that flies into Crimea (and every airport that receives flights from Crimea). Make the western-oriented states that have not joined in join the sanctions (South Korea, where are you? BTW, when Mr. Netaniyahu comes visiting, as I've heard he is planning, he should get an earfull as well - that would help Speaker Boehner get rid of the charges he cares more about a foreign government, than about his own). Run a few big exercises with the Japanese near the Kuril islands. Invite President Nazarbayev for a State Visit to the US (a speech to Congress would add an extra nice touch).  Have as many presidents and prime ministers as possible attend the V-E Day parade in Kiev - Ukraine is as much as successor to the USSR here as Russia is.  

Actually, even the Greeks have a role to play: they have been talking about asking Russia for money. Great! Have them call the Russian bluff - a few billion USD that Russia lends them would still disappear in the oncoming mess, but would nicely deplete the Russian coffers. Even better, if only one could find a way to have Russia finance the Maduro government: that is a bottomless pit that should be refilled as intensively as possible.

[Frodo]

There is talk about Putin moving on to Kazakhstan once he is finished subjugating Ukraine.   

[ag]

There is talk about Putin moving on to Kazakhstan once he is finished subjugating Ukraine.   

A few US bases ranged around Astana, if President Nazarbayev can be persuaded of that, could be useful in that respect.

[politicus]

There is talk about Putin moving on to Kazakhstan once he is finished subjugating Ukraine.  

A few US bases ranged around Astana, if President Nazarbayev can be persuaded of that, could be useful in that respect.

Kazakhstan is a case where a border revision would seem reasonable. Unlike Ukraine the cultural difference is huge and the Russians are concentrated near the border.

[Frodo]

Do bear in mind that Putin also wants the Baikonur Cosmodrome back, along with bringing the Russian population in Kazakhstan back into the fold. 

[ag]

There is talk about Putin moving on to Kazakhstan once he is finished subjugating Ukraine.  

A few US bases ranged around Astana, if President Nazarbayev can be persuaded of that, could be useful in that respect.

Kazakhstan is a case where a border revision would seem reasonable. Unlike Ukraine the cultural difference is huge and the Russians are concentrated near the border.

It would be also nice if you noted where the capital is. Furthermore, ane ethnic map of adjoining parts of Bashkortostan and (a bit further afield) Tatarstan, where "the cultural differerence" is quite similar. Perhaps, that would suggest you why, how should we put it mildly, this might not be any easy solution to implement.

BTW, a lot of the Slavs are... you guessed it: Ukrainian.

Perhaps, this is a better map to peruse:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg

One thing, though, is certain: there will be no infiltration of "polite green men": Mr. Nazarbayev can be counted on killing those off before they say: "howdy".

[ag]

Do bear in mind that Putin also wants the Baikonur Cosmodrome back, along with bringing the Russian population in Kazakhstan back into the fold. 

What about the Ukrainian population of Kazakhstan?

[bgwah]

It would be also nice if you noted where the capital is.

And why was the capital moved there?

[ag]

It would be also nice if you noted where the capital is.

And why was the capital moved there?

Well, if you move your capital to a place called the "white grave" you'd better have a reason. It is not like these guys have never suspected that Russia may be somewhat prone to conquest. Unlike many here, Kazakhs tend to speak and read Russian, so they know that in Russia they still clamor not merely for the "Southern Siberia" but also for the good old Russian town of Verny (known to most of you as Almaty). So, rather than waiting for the Russians down South, they decided to strengthen their presence in the North. Would you blame them?

[jaichind]

Looks like the rebels captured Debaltseve, not sure how many troops of the Ukrainian Army managed to pull out and how many were captured.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

There are a few other things that could be done. Sanction every airline that flies into Crimea (and every airport that receives flights from Crimea). Make the western-oriented states that have not joined in join the sanctions (South Korea, where are you? BTW, when Mr. Netaniyahu comes visiting, as I've heard he is planning, he should get an earfull as well - that would help Speaker Boehner get rid of the charges he cares more about a foreign government, than about his own). Run a few big exercises with the Japanese near the Kuril islands. Invite President Nazarbayev for a State Visit to the US (a speech to Congress would add an extra nice touch).  Have as many presidents and prime ministers as possible attend the V-E Day parade in Kiev - Ukraine is as much as successor to the USSR here as Russia is.

This would backfire immensely from a tactical standpoint. The Putin government collapsing (if that is the intended result of your sanction/ostracization proposals) would not result in a liberal Russia, but an ultranationalist and presumably more trigger-happy Russia--that is, the NSDAP to Putin's DNVP.

(If I haven't already, I do apologize for my Putin apologism last year)