Ukraine Crisis

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Hopefully the duly elected government can continue to hold strong against mob violence.

You mean hopefully they can continue to massacre young protesters? I'm sure they can but I wouldn't be so gleeful about it.

I don't want to see anybody massacred, but I'm more and more concerned about the growing strenght of the far right nationalists whom, frankly, the Democrats can't control.

Trust me, those are people you don't want to gain any power.

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Who exactly are the neo-nazis? (and please cite evidence of them being such) I have yet to see any swastikas or skinheads in the pictures of the groups attacking the gov't offices yet.

I have no doubt that there are likely some racists and anti-immigrants in the groups, but that does not equal neo-nazi.  

Fascist elements are not limited to swastika-displaying skinheads (although there were report that a group occupying one of the government buildings displayed a flag with the Celtic Cross. )

Most of those in question as proud ideological heir to Stepan Bandera (check this dude). They're hardly pro-European, liberal crowd. They're literally fascists (and, as most of you know, I hate to use this term in a vain). Sorry, but I have zero confidence in the Democratic opposition as long as they are mixing up with such people. Es-specially if these elements are beginning to dominate the process.

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Reports are both sides are now quite armed (with part of the Berkut switching sides). And there was some fire and some bodies, so I'm not very confident truce can be enforced

Who exactly are the neo-nazis? (and please cite evidence of them being such) I have yet to see any swastikas or skinheads in the pictures of the groups attacking the gov't offices yet.

I have no doubt that there are likely some racists and anti-immigrants in the groups, but that does not equal neo-nazi.  

Does the Slavic far right use the swastica often? I would think that it would be quite unpopular

Yeah, you would, but no it isn't, is the short answer.

If I could get five cents for every time I saw Slavic neo-nazis using swastika, I'd be more wealthy than Warren Buffet.

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There's a near 0% chance of the fascists taking power in Ukraine.They don't have anywhere near wide enough support, being loud and vocal doesn't make up for that.

Formal membership-wise? Yes, but you obviously know very little about Western Ukraine. It's a very fruitful ground for such types. You really should do some reading on Bandera, who is a hero in the region and to whom Ukrainian far-rightist are proud ideological heirs.

I can't see any fascist governments in Kiev either, but what I can see and what I'm scared about is these types gaining more and more influence. History shows what they're capable of.

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You point being? Of course they do, but why should that stop them from joining the protests? It's in their best interest to be involved.

Reminds me a bit of Syria, of all places.

I hope it will never come to this. Having a civil war on my border is the last thing I'd like to see.

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Lviv has declared independence from the Ukrainian central government

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-facing-civil-war-lviv-declares-independence-yanukovich-rule-1437092

In before I hear the first "time to retake Lwów"...

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humanitarian grounds. The goal is to gain influence and power, not to be nice and moral.

The reason I think the West should support the "rebels" in this case is almost solely to undermine Russia.

This.

Go meddle in your own f**king hemisphere, please.

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Go meddle in your own f**king hemisphere, please.

Our interests expand beyond our own hemisphere, sorry.

Well, if you think that by getting involved in the way you spoke of now, and totally destablizing Central Europe when the peaceful resolutuion is still possible, you're going to advance the U.S. interest, then you're just naive. If only it will make Putin very happy.

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So we should just embrace geopolitical sociopathy instead of backing away from it?

If only life were that simple. "Geo-political sociopathy" is geo-politics. Not to say there isn't room for humanitarianism (for example I think we should've intervened in Rwanda) but at the end of the day we have to do what is necessary lest our enemies gain the upper hand.

Spoken like a true HP. Congratulations.

Sorry real life is to "mean" for your tastes.

I mind you being an HP. I mind that your conception of reality is very unrealistic.

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21st century Marcos, and his family has plenty of loot too. Man's clearly insane.

Nah, he's just your very typical oligarch.

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I meant what he's doing now is insane, not the loot.

I don't know. He might very well be looking for a way out ot the country, which would be all but insane.

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I mind you being an HP. I mind that your conception of reality is very unrealistic.

The opposite is true. The fact that self-interest dominates international relations is backed up by almost all of human history.

Unsuprisingly you're missing the point.

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Unsuprisingly you're missing the point.

You and Franzl keep saying vague things like this, but have yet to provide any supporting logic whatsoever.

I have explained a page or two ago. It's not my fault you need to work on your reading comprehension.

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Ukrainian rabbi tells Kiev's Jews to flee city
Fearing violence against Ukraine's Jews, the Jewish community asks Israel for assistance with the security of the community.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.575732


I really hope that certain nice guys won't take an advantage of the situation

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"Correction (Feb. 22, 4:20 P.M.): An earlier version of this report incorrectly described Rabbi Azman as the chief rabbi of Ukraine. Azman is not the country's chief rabbi, but one of two rabbis challenging the official chief rabbi, Yaakov Bleich, in Kiev, and like most Chabad rabbis, is aligned with the Kremlin."

I saw that, but thing is still worth mentioning, esspecially given the certain elements' heavy presence on the streets as we speak.

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Thousands Storm Viktor Yanukovych's Palace, Find His Private Zoo And Other Luxuries (PHOTOS)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/22/yanukovych-zoo-palace-ukraine_n_4838187.html

I guess we can all agree the man has no taste whatsoever

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Judging from first reactions, Russia seems to be pretty pissed about the recent developments.

But short of launching WWIII, I doubt that they can do much about it.

Rhetorics sound as if they're about to break off diplomatic relations with Ukraine though or something like that.

Putin is anything but impatient. Russia suffered a setback in 2004-2005, just to regain an upper hand later. Now, despite making noises (which would be very surprising if they haven't), they'll probably wait for the next round as well.

And make no mistake, given the divisions and every government inability to maintain support, there will be the "next round".

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Putin doesn't need to send tanks, when he can simplz turn off gas.

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I think we should not jump at conclusions just yet. Kremlin-backed groups? Possibly. Russian Army? I doubt.

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Well, according to treaties, the Russians are perfectly allowed to use Sevastopol airfield. Also, it's where their Black Sea fleet is based, so they are allowed to deploy troops to defend their garrisons as well. Given the situation, that would be logical.

What I completely don't understand and what is hard indeed to explain is the business with Simferopol.

EDIT: Forgot Ukraine closed airspace.

Elsewhere, apparently Vladimir Zhirinovsky turned up in Sevastopol.

I forgot all along him

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It just my guess, but I don't see any large invasion as of now. Putin is probably baiting the new government to make some sort of mistake, that would futher erode their already diminished position with the Maidan, that now pretty much controls Kiev. Divide et impera.

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Country invades a foreign nation to protect its fellow countrymen and the rest of the world is just sitting on their asses. Welcome to Munich 38.

Gee, please don't do Godwin.

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So what's Russia's endgame here? Assuming that everyone is smart and no triggers are pulled, eventually Russian troops will withdraw and you're left with a defacto independent state (maybe recognized by only Russia and Belarus?) that has extremely close ties to Moscow? What about the 30-40% (is it that right? too lazy to look it up) of the population that is not pro-Russia?

I was just thinking of such scenario. Doesn't even need to be partially recognized (see Transnistria).

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Crimea might very well be a smoke screen for Donbas.

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Putin has "asked" the Duma for an AUMF in Crimea.

Federation Council, not Duma.

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And no one will do a damn thing.

I'm sorry for sounding cynical here, but what actually can be done?

I'm asking because it's not so obvious.