Ukraine Crisis

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

A country stuck between a rock and a hard place; the government is a bunch of corrupt thugs and the protesters range from naive "liberal" students to neo-Nazis. The idea that Ukrainians are a separate nation is silly, though.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

naive "liberal" students

Says the naive "socialist" high schooler.

You do know the protesters range from centrists to neo-Nazis, right? Ukraine will either be a slave to Merkel, a slave to Putin, or a slave to local (literal, not even hyperbolic) fascists. It will not end well.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The president is claiming there's a truce.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

naive "liberal" students

Says the naive "socialist" high schooler.

You do know the protesters range from centrists to neo-Nazis, right? Ukraine will either be a slave to Merkel, a slave to Putin, or a slave to local (literal, not even hyperbolic) fascists. It will not end well.

Sos un pelotudo importante.

estoy de acuerdo

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Kerry: U.S. open to sanctions.

Did we slap sanctions on Bahrain when they murdered protesters? Oh wait no, they're our ally so it's okay.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I think the bad guys, aka the government, are clearly bad. I think the good guys, aka the opponents, are mostly bad and pursuing other interests than freedom and democracy for all...

I disagree. Euromaidan has been gradually shifting to a more pro-EU tone over the course of the last few months. Obviously a power vacuum would create potential for an authoritarian regime, but I would not say that the current protests are showing that at the moment.

Anyway, why is Snowstalker so reluctant to at least entirely criticize the existing government? The pro-Russia faction consists of many neoliberal, capitalist, and religious orthodox viewpoints.

The pro-Russian faction is just as awful, yes, but I find it necessary to push back against the western narrative of this and Venezuela being "noble protesters united against pure evil governments!!!11!"

For the record, I unfortunately have little faith in the proposed peace deal.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Decent article, at least from my perspective.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Ukrainian media outlet cites presidential administration sources as saying Yanukovych and a handful of top allies and guards are Kharkiv-bound.

Strikes me as an indicator that the peace deal isn't going well.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

1989 called. They want their approach to foreign policy back (duh-dum-ching).

It's not a Cold War thing. This is how it's always been done. It's like does anyone really think the UK went to war with Germany in 1914 because they were just "so concerned" about poor little Belgium. No, they went to war to stop Germany from becoming the dominant European power generally. Belgium was just a casus belli.

It's the same now as it ever was. The United States has global interests and they will be upheld, although sometimes a humanitarian mask is necessary (ala Libya 2011).

So we should just embrace geopolitical sociopathy instead of backing away from it?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Crimea playing up secession/rejoining Russia.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

This isn't really a Cold War repeat given the lack of any real ideological difference between Russia/its sphere and the West. More akin to the great power struggles a century ago.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

It's not going to end well for the ethnic minorities in Crimea...

I'm far more concerned for the non-Ukrainians in Ukraine.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

It's not going to end well for the ethnic minorities in Crimea...

I'm far more concerned for the non-Ukrainians in Ukraine.

Thank you for the new USSR propaganda, but we don't need it.

I fail to see any resemblance between Putin's right-wing oligarchy and the Soviet Union, nor do I see how acknowledging the open racism of much of the new Ukrainian government is "propaganda".

Lithuania's FM Linkevicius has said Russia's decision to deploy forces in Ukraine means "Nato, art. 4 becomes valid," referring to article 4 of the Nato treaty. The article says Nato members must meet for consultations if "the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened."

This would make sense if Ukraine were a NATO member.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Snowstalker's heroes:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26400276

Both sides strike me as quite awful, as is the case in most international conflicts. This is the problem that arises when you have a revolution without the element of class struggle.

One thing's for sure though...after this a majority of Ukrainians will never again allow their country to fall under Russia's sphere of influence.

Being under Merkel's sphere of influence isn't much better.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Being under Merkel's sphere of influence isn't much better.

Yes cause German troops are rolling thru the streets of Athens. :hündinbitte:

You can't blame him, sovietic propaganda made him insane.

For the millionth time, opposition to the current Ukrainian government=/=support for Yanukovych or Putin.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The US and American posters ought to stop speaking from a moral high ground given our aggressive post-Cold War wars against Panama, Iraq, Sudan, etc.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I'm not denying that many people both in and outside America are opposed to aggressive wars started by both the US and Russia, but many of the same people criticizing Putin for wanting to protect ethnic Russians from a neo-Nazi regime see nothing wrong with Obama sending drones to turn a Yemeni wedding into a Yemeni funeral, or Bush setting up torture camps in Iraq (which he had earlier invaded under false pretext), or Clinton laying waste to basic civilian infrastructure (and civilians) in Yugoslavia, etc.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I'm not denying that many people both in and outside America are opposed to aggressive wars started by both the US and Russia, but many of the same people criticizing Putin for wanting to protect ethnic Russians from a neo-Nazi regime see nothing wrong with Obama sending drones to turn a Yemeni wedding into a Yemeni funeral, or Bush setting up torture camps in Iraq (which he had earlier invaded under false pretext), or Clinton laying waste to basic civilian infrastructure (and civilians) in Yugoslavia, etc.

lol at you buying that protecting ethnic Russians is the reason Putin invaded. Even Bush going to Iraq due to WMDs was more believable.

At the very least it gives Russia far more interest in Ukraine, and wanting control over Russian areas is quite clearly a goal of Putin's. Really, the only parts of Ukraine meaningfully different from Russia are the areas that were part of Austria-Hungary and then Poland, and were annexed into Russia in 1939.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I'm not denying that many people both in and outside America are opposed to aggressive wars started by both the US and Russia, but many of the same people criticizing Putin for wanting to protect ethnic Russians from a neo-Nazi regime see nothing wrong with Obama sending drones to turn a Yemeni wedding into a Yemeni funeral, or Bush setting up torture camps in Iraq (which he had earlier invaded under false pretext), or Clinton laying waste to basic civilian infrastructure (and civilians) in Yugoslavia, etc.

You oppose all those so-called American atrocities but you defend Russia.

Seems to me you don't mind aggressive military action unless it's done by Americans or people who perceive as pro-American.

I'm not a fan of aggressive military action in general, but I don't like double standards either (and the idea that there's only propaganda on Moscow's side is hilariously untrue). For instance,

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I don't support the Russian invasion, but I don't support the Western propaganda surrounding it either. Both sides in Ukraine were run by corrupt oligarchs--but some of those corrupt oligarchs and their neo-Nazi lackeys were pro-EU, so they had to be the good guys.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I don't support the Russian invasion, but I don't support the Western propaganda surrounding it either. Both sides in Ukraine were run by corrupt oligarchs--but some of those corrupt oligarchs and their neo-Nazi lackeys were pro-EU, so they had to be the good guys.

Some of them had snipers shoot random protesters. Others didn't. It's obvious which side are the good guys.

Neither, given that said protesters also overthrew a democratically-elected government they happened to dislike, then proceeded to strip away protections for non-Ukrainians in Ukraine. It's just that the oligarchs behind Euromaidan are pro-Western and want to join the EU, so they must be the good guys! CNN and the New York Times told me so! The only solution is for the Ukrainian conflict to become a class struggle (class was disappointingly a non-factor in the revolution) and for Ukraine's proletariat to overthrow both the pro-Brussels thugs and the pro-Moscow thugs.

And I never said that America was behind the protests (though I'm sure that Obama has something to do with the far-right rich kids trying to bring fascism back to Venezuela).

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Putin's concern is maintaining the Crimean bases, warm-water Black Sea ports with access to the Med and beyond - it's the most Russian thing there is, that plus a bruised ego of having his puppet thrown out of office. You're fooling yourself if you think there is anything more to this than that.

It's OK there's allowed to be a bad guy here...

There's no reason for Crimea to be part of Ukraine. The "bad guys" are the rich corrupt thugs who oppress Ukraine's working class, whether they're Merkel's puppets or Putin's puppets.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I don't support the Russian invasion, but I don't support the Western propaganda surrounding it either. Both sides in Ukraine were run by corrupt oligarchs--but some of those corrupt oligarchs and their neo-Nazi lackeys were pro-EU, so they had to be the good guys.

Yanukovych killed his own country's people. The new government has not. So no, they aren't "just as bad".

Yanukovych was, again, awful, but what would you do if a motley crew of "enlightened" neoliberals and neo-Nazi skinheads were attempting to overthrow of a democratically-elected government?

Again, this is what happens when you try to have a revolution without an organized left (and attempted leftist protests against the government were quickly quashed by Svoboda thugs). When it's right-wingers vs. right-wingers, everyone loses except the moneyed elites.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Putin's concern is maintaining the Crimean bases, warm-water Black Sea ports with access to the Med and beyond - it's the most Russian thing there is, that plus a bruised ego of having his puppet thrown out of office. You're fooling yourself if you think there is anything more to this than that.

It's OK there's allowed to be a bad guy here...

There's no reason for Crimea to be part of Ukraine. The "bad guys" are the rich corrupt thugs who oppress Ukraine's working class, whether they're Merkel's puppets or Putin's puppets.

There is no reason for you to be spouting nonsense in support of various fascist dictators all over the world either. Nevertheless, you are continuously doing it: just for fun, I presume.

The fascists are the ones who used a modified swastika as their party symbol and now hold several cabinet seats in the new government, no?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Again, I don't think Putin is making the right decision, especially if Russian intervention ends up extending outside Crimea, and I hope he's overthrown at some point by the Russian workers (hopefully in a more leftist protest than the Euromaidan ). Obviously invading would only give more legitimacy to the far-right elements of Euromaidan.