Ukraine Crisis

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Who cares about the Ukranian people, right, as long as it serves American interests.

Welcome to geo-politics.

1989 called. They want their approach to foreign policy back (duh-dum-ching).

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

1989 called. They want their approach to foreign policy back (duh-dum-ching).

It's not a Cold War thing. This is how it's always been done. It's like does anyone really think the UK went to war with Germany in 1914 because they were just "so concerned" about poor little Belgium. No, they went to war to stop Germany from becoming the dominant European power generally. Belgium was just a casus belli.

It's the same now as it ever was. The United States has global interests and they will be upheld, although sometimes a humanitarian mask is necessary (ala Libya 2011).

America should be keeping the Russians at bay in North and South America. The EU is big enough of a bloc to take care of itself.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

So is anyone else afraid Obama will go cowboy after his Syria wavering and start WWIII?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

So, did the fiscal conservatives invade the social conservatives??

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Remember when Russia was all about "not intervening in the internal affairs of other countries"? 

Remember when Obama was?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Seems Russia will at least officially annex Crimea.  What it has in store for the rest of the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine, I can only speculate.  My guess is Russia will split Ukraine in half, with the Russian-speaking portion being given a sort of Potemkin 'independence' as a client state, but in reality being annexed by Russia in all but name, the rest of the world be damned.

Not sure if this is the best strategy for Russia or what Putin have in mind.  If I were Putin I would want to make sure the pro-Russian vote in Ukraine is as significant as possible coupled with de facto economic domination of Russia over Ukraine (able to control credit, gas prices and food import levels) and in turn create a Ukrainian government that takes order from Moscow.  With all the cards Putin holds he has a significant chance of pulling this off.  Annexing the pro-Russian part of Ukraine actually weakens Moscow's hold on the rest of Ukraine and ensure that the rump Ukraine becomes a perpetual enemy of Russia.

Wouldn't Putin still be able to dominate the rump Ukraine economically in the same manner as he would a united, pro Russian puppet Ukraine though?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I was just going to post "where is Tony with a Stop Saying Words! meme when you need it" but I see he just posted.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

2010 Ukraine presidential election: (Without Crimea)
Tymochenko: 50.2%
Ianoukovitch: 49.8%

Timochenko would have won. I tend to believe that Russians are "bluffing". If they annex Crimea, they will massively lose their influence in the rest of Ukraine. And I don't think it's what they want. Remember Stalin who wanted the Federal Republic of Germany and East Germany to merge and to be a "neutral" zone, a kind of "nomansland' between the two superpowers (and Adenauer refused this plan). Russia has always wanted to have a "buffer strip". And if they annex Crimea right now, Ukraine won't be a buffer strip anymore. That's why I believe they are bluffing.

I think the Russians want Crimea more than they want (or need) a buffer state. Finland, Estonia, and Latvia are NATO and EU states and they border Russia, with no buffer states between them.

Finlnd isn't a member of NATO. But you're right for Estonio and Latvia.
But if they annex Crimea, they will definitely lose their influence in  Ukraine!

But isn’t guaranteed access to a warm water port in the Black Sea more crucial than keeping the Ukraine as a puppet state? The Ukraine has shown itself to be vulnerable even with the Crimea. They are gambling Crimea’s strategic value on what has been proven time and time again to be a weak hold on Ukrainian affairs.

My apologies for asking rather simple questions.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

This isn't the 18th century; military conquest isn't actually a legitimate diplomatic instrument anymore.

Tell that to Putin.

Which is why Georgia is now a province of the Russian federation.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

We need to supply Ukraine with nukes or else Russia can just run roughtshot over them.

You are just trolling right?

You are correct: nuclear weapons are too dangerous. Chemical weapons would be better to give them.

...your still trolling, right?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Also, what does everyone think of the idea of American forces setting up a "tripwire" in the case of a larger Russian invasion of the Ukraine? The idea is we would insert a line (or "wire") of paratroopers along the Dnieper. The idea is that we will be allowing Russia to take the Eastern half of Ukraine but making it to where if Russia wants to go further they have to attack American soldiers, thus automatically triggering a war.

Don't get me wrong they could break through this "wire" easily but by doing so they would be declaring war on NATO. The idea is the Russians will accept the gift (Eastern Ukraine & Crimea) and know better then to escalate.

That and I think the Administration could bypass Congress with this kind of maneuver. If the Russians attack it will trigger the War Powers Act. I highly doubt that Congress has the audacity to play funding games to prevent this.

That is a horrible idea that will blow up things to an unnecessary level. If Russia wants to play games with ethnic separatism, I saw we should hit back. I’m sure the people of Chechnya agree….(and yes, I know they are Islamists).

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Obama to speak at 10:45 AM.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Nagorny Karabakh is not a Russian puppet at all. It is not even quite an Armenian puppet, really - in any case, whatever it is, it is Armenian, not Russian.

While I agree it's not a Russian pupet at all, I think we can all safely say it is an Armenian puppet though.

Oh, and y'all : how did Hawaii get incorporated to the US in 1898 again ? How was that towards international law ?...

Not that Hawaii was any less justified, but international law was meaningless back then, and even still, Russia annexed their way across Asia and Eastern Europe before and after the revolution.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page

Conservapedia states that the reason for the vote was because of Russia's anti homesexuality laws...

Will you quit bringing up Conservapedia like its the actual voice of the Tea Party?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Guys, Estonia is in NATO. This is just making noises.

Ukraine is still the place of actual events.

^^^^^

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

It also shows what a pointless joke the UN has become.

Please stop talking and come back when you figure out what the United Nations actually does.

In my lifetime, the only thing I have seen the UN "do" is make itself a forum for third world crackpots and tyrants to blame the west for their problems.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

It also shows what a pointless joke the UN has become.

Please stop talking and come back when you figure out what the United Nations actually does.

In my lifetime, the only thing I have seen the UN "do" is make itself a forum for third world crackpots and tyrants to blame the west for their problems.

Here, I'll help you out. Have you noticed that smallpox isn't a thing anymore? Who do you think is responsible for that?

Edward Jenner.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

It also shows what a pointless joke the UN has become.

Please stop talking and come back when you figure out what the United Nations actually does.

In my lifetime, the only thing I have seen the UN "do" is make itself a forum for third world crackpots and tyrants to blame the west for their problems.

Here, I'll help you out. Have you noticed that smallpox isn't a thing anymore? Who do you think is responsible for that?

Seriously?  Not the UN.

Who, then?

Edward Jenner...

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Moreover, it is literally wrong to claim that because Edward Jenner discovered the smallpox vaccine that the United Nations was not responsible for the eradication of the disease.

If the UN didn't exist, the Red Cross would have eventually eradicated it. And even if the UN is effective in this area, is it still efective at its core political purpose?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

As a Libertarian I hate Putin. I also hate the fact that people seriously care about Crimea. I don't want to defend Putin, but what he does in Russia's sperhe of influence isn't a serious threat unless he invades a NATO country.