Ukraine Crisis

[Zanas]

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Convinced now ? I'm with Snowstalker and Kalwejt on this one.

 

[Zanas]

I think we can expect both sides to be anti-semitic. It's Ukraine, after all...

I think the bad guys, aka the government, are clearly bad. I think the good guys, aka the opponents, are mostly bad and pursuing other interests than freedom and democracy for all...

So I guess it's another of those lose-lose situations. Don't we get a lot of those...

[Zanas]

Being under Merkel's sphere of influence isn't much better.

Yes cause German troops are rolling thru the streets of Athens. :hündinbitte:

You can't blame him, sovietic propaganda made him insane.

For the millionth time, opposition to the current Ukrainian government=/=support for Yanukovych or Putin.

Comparing Merkel to Putin is supporting Putin, as one is clearly worse than the other one (and it's coming from someone strongly disliking Merkel).

FWIW, Snowstalker said that being under Merkel's sphere isn't much better than under Putin's and I kind of agree with him. Of course it's not the same, but in the latter you have no right whatsoever, whereas in the former you are slowly stripped of all the rights your parents once had without being able to do anything about it because IMF and sh**t.

[Zanas]

Yeah I'm viewing a Crimea on the lines of Northern Cyprus or Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh). Then the international community would be happy not to have to actually react. I don't think Putin eventually moves towards annexing Eastern Ukraine or actually splitting it. It would be opening a can of the proverbial worms, and Putin wants stability.

[Zanas]

It won't be recognized by much, maybe only Russia and Belarus, perhaps a few more of the CIS.

France and the UK have also suspended their participation in the G8's preparation btw.

[Zanas]

Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

This part is of course hilarious. I hope it's meant in parody. As if a lonely courageous guy had started a super cool revolution by himself on #Twitter !!!1!1!! Seriously.

Snowstalker, I agree with you on the fundamentals. But you could word things better.

Of course, it's not a revolution if it's not the working people's revolution. Things will be awful when any government of pro-EU oligarchs start to implement EU austerity at its finest and the people is wholly disappointed and doesn't know what to do next.

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

[Zanas]

The problem is of course, there is no "left-wing" whatsoever that's tolerated in this coutry as of now. I fail to see how a truly left-wing, with broad popular support, could win the election in 2 or 3 years. Plus, if there's one thing pro-EU and pro-Russia oligarchs tend to agree on, is they don't want anything resembling a left-wing candidate with popular support near them or their assets.

[Zanas]

The reading of RT's website (formerly Russia Today) is very interesting in these times. That is to say if you have the judgment to read between the lines, which not all of us seem to have...

[Zanas]

The reading of RT's website (formerly Russia Today) is very interesting in these times. That is to say if you have the judgment to read between the lines, which not all of us seem to have...

What? Just that it's pro-Russian or is there something more? Too lazy to read a bunch of articles. Also, there doesn't even seem to be that many...maybe that's what you meant.

You know, it's a little bit more complicated than that. It always is... There are quite a number of articles actually, and what they tell is a good indication of where the Russian propaganda wants to go. If you read RT, you could predict what Snowstalkers will be saying tomorrow, and cut them before.

If you have a little understanding of geopolitics, and a bit of judgment, reading RT is quite valuable because you're gonna be able to tell when they are exaggerating something, plain just lying, or telling the truth. Because they obviously tell the truth at times, they just know how much bullsh**t they can pump in, and how to present things to tell their story. They're quite good actually.

[Zanas]

Russia is apparently talking about building a bridge across the Kerch Strait (the strait at the eastern end of Crimea, at the entrance to the Sea of Azov); this would give a connection from Crimea to Russia without going through the rest of Ukraine.

They have been talking about it for ages. Of course that would make sense. One was built there during WW2 but it got broken by ice. Also the geological conditions seem to be very complicated to build a solid bridge.

Maybe we should give the Veto power to an another country from the ex soviet Union?

Who are "we" and how do you propose "we" should do that exactly ?

-Oh hey Vladou, mind if we strip you of your veto in the UNSC ?
-Not at all, West, go ahead, see if I care !
-Oh and you wouldn't be a permanent member either...
-No worries, mate. Who are you getting in ?
-Well, we thought about Estonia. Nothing sure yet.
-Good, good.
-See ya !

[Zanas]

Armenians are not orthodox, they have their own apostolic Church, and things have been relatively quiet in Nagorno-Karabagh recently actually (I've stayed there a few years ago), but I see your point. Plenty of other examples can be thought of.

[Zanas]

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

At least, have big troop concentrations on the LOC. Both in Georgia and in Moldova. Do not cross the lines, for the moment - do so only if Russians move into mainland Ukraine. But make sure that the Russians have to think about defending those.

I would also do the same in the Far East with the "Northern Territories": make the Japanese concentrate a lot on Hokkaido, run big war games simulating landings on some islands. Basically, make the Russians disperse troops all over the country, in expectation that they MAY be attacked.

This is not Risk. Get real.

[Zanas]

Anyway, it was then that I knew that the war was extremely likely. And, unfortunately, I was right.

Wait a minute. Is there a war ?

[Zanas]

CNN says that it's a routine test.

Well, I don't care, it would be logical that you stop a test like that in the middle of a global crisis.

Well, not really from Russia's point of view, don't you think ? If Putin had postponed that test during this crisis, he'd have shown a weakness. You don't show a weakness during a crisis. But anyway, I'm not alarmed even by that. Even if I'm here sitting less than a thousand miles away from the Russian border. I'm not expecting the tanks anytime soon.

[Zanas]

I give you this article with all the caution possible. Aside from retrospecting the main fallacies in both sides' treatment of the crisis, it alleges that some if not most of the people shot on Maidan were shot by opposition gunmen and not government ones. But it comes from an alleged conversation between Ashton and Estonia's FM, bugged by Yanukovich's secret services and reported by RT. So a whole lot of caution with this.

[Zanas]

Crimean deputy prime minister Rustam Temirgaliev just made the following statement:

- The Crimean parliament's decision to join the Russian Federation is effective immediately.

- As of this moment, Ukraninian troops on Crimea are considered an occupation force. Ukrainian soldiers on Crimea must either accept Russian citizenship and join the Russian amry or leave the peninsula.

Who the f**k is this Temirgaliev guy anyway? Seems like a major troll to me.

So they're not even waiting to have a phony referendum to implement it now ? Aren't they working a bit too fast ? What made them go so fast from March 30th to March 16th to effective immediately ?

[Zanas]

http://time.com/22125/ukraine-crimea-cossacks-russia/

Armed Cossacks have taken to "patrolling" Crimea, and building fortifications, among other details.

Ukraine can easily kick them out by arming a few angry, pipe-hitting Crimean Tartars with Aks and plyers.

Hardly.  Even before the upcoming anchluss, the Russians were the majority in the Crimea and Russia has a much more robust military than Ukraine. Putin of course would love the excuse he had been hoping to get for his conduct, but thankfully Ukraine did learn the lesson of Georgia.  You need to use diplomacy and not military means to have any hope of confronting Russia and winning.  Granted, it's a slim hope, but it's better than the zero chance they'd have if they went military in their response.

Russia is concentrating troops on the border with Ukraine - far from Crimea. A public commitment to defense of, at least, mainland Ukraine is urgent. Otherwise, we will be discussing Poland a lot sooner than most think.

I get that you are anxious, ag, I really get it. But Poland is part of the EU and Nato for Bretzel's sake ! It's a completely different story.

[Zanas]

Nagorny Karabakh is not a Russian puppet at all. It is not even quite an Armenian puppet, really - in any case, whatever it is, it is Armenian, not Russian.

While I agree it's not a Russian pupet at all, I think we can all safely say it is an Armenian puppet though.

Oh, and y'all : how did Hawaii get incorporated to the US in 1898 again ? How was that towards international law ?...

[Zanas]

This comment on Estonia is just what it is : Putin trolling the West hard saying "I did f[inks] you in the ass hard, didn't I ?"

Now back to where things happen, as Kalwejt said.

[Zanas]

I have a question : of the few countries that recognized the legitimacy of the referendum, I get why most of them did (eg : Venezuela, Syria etc.), but why in the world would Uganda do it ? Is there something I don't know ? Do they also have an irredentist region in a neighboring country that they would very much like to seize ?

[Zanas]

This won't end well. At all.

[Zanas]

Then why deploy them in the first place?

Because a good chunk of the military's hierarchy has been purged and replaced by incompetents who have just been in office for a few weeks ? And they are morons ? Yes, Krutov, I'm pointing at you...

[Zanas]

Full on civil war will probably start after Russia wins the Donesk referendum.

You realize, I hope, that the "Donetsk referendum" is being run without electoral rolls, without cooperation of local electoral commissions in most places and not according to any law (Ukrainian or Russian), by people who self-declared themselves electoral authorities.

Does not every electoral authority declare itself as such, in a way, though ? I mean if nobody challenges them, are they not de facto an authority ?

[Zanas]

Please, Peter, Afleich, would it be possible to give death points to Snowstalker when he's being a pro Russian sage, thanks. Maybe he will finally be muted.

I will now report every Snowstalker's posts when he will be disgusting with the Ukrainians.

Why do so many people on this forums have this perception that disagreeing with them is somehow or should be an infractable/banable offense? I mean it's bad enough how many people practically have the entire forum on ignore spare a few people who agree with them on everything.

I have never reported a post, but I will do right now. Simply because I believe some disgusting posts towards Ukrainians, people who suffer from this folk of alcoholic homophobes, shouldn't be the victimes of the sage-master Putin lover.

Yes, but calling all Russians alcoholic homophobes because you hate Putin is perfectly alright, good job.

[Zanas]

Russia has suspended a 2001 agreement on mutual military inspections with Lithuania, the defense ministry said on Monday, amid growing worries in the Baltic region over Moscow's assertiveness in Ukraine.

Under their agreement, Lithuania could inspect forces in Kaliningrad, a Russian exclave between Lithuania and Poland that is the headquarters of the Russian Baltic fleet, while Russia could do likewise with the Lithuanian military.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/05/us-ukraine-crisis-lithuania-russia-idUSBREA440I020140505

inb4 ag states that this is the end of the world as we know it.