SENATE BILL: Fix the Regions Amendment Take Two (Sent to the Regions)
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  SENATE BILL: Fix the Regions Amendment Take Two (Sent to the Regions)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Fix the Regions Amendment Take Two (Sent to the Regions)  (Read 3048 times)
Lumine
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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2013, 08:26:42 PM »


If we are going to make changes and create a new functional Atlasia, this is our time. I have learned to love my region, but as a Regional Executive I am willing to destroy it to create new regions so we can help improve the game.

Each of the Atlasian Governors has pledged to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitutions of our respective regions. We must not forget that.

As for Governor PJ's post, all I can say is that I don't have the power to block anything as I'm just an ordinary voter in a region made up of nearly 50 citizens. What I demand, however, is that the voice of every single Atlasian region is heard and taken seriously. If a majority of citizens in a region don't want their region to be dissolved we must respect that. Nothing is more harmful for a political simulation like Atlasia than forcing such radical changes down the throat of a large number of players. You simply risk losing many active players this way. The question is: Can Atlasia afford that? My answer to that question is no, and I therefore urge the Senate to defeat this amendment unless it includes a clause which states that the consent of the regions being changed is required.
I misunderstood the clause of the amendment, which isn't your fault, but it does not specify via public referendum.

You are right. A public referendum is a necessity, of course. Such far-reaching reform attempts must be voted on by the entire citizenry of the regions that are targeted for dissolution, not only by their governments.

Well, those of us who are strongly in favor of reform are counting on massive public approval, hence the existence of the consent process. I agree with you, there should be a referendum, but I think the majority of Atlasia matters more than a majority in all regions. What if the overwhelming majority of Atlasia votes for change and a single region votes against it with a small plurality? Should we disregard the entire process and the wishes of the rest of the country?

This is a dangerous solution, but all previous attempts have failed. God knows how hard PJ (and Tyrion as Governor) have worked to save the Pacific, and it's not enough. Should we just wait until problems are solved and the game functional again? Is there a way to address those problems without altering the dynamics of the game? I honestly can't think of one...
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Sec. of State Superique
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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2013, 09:27:35 PM »

My Moderate Hero tendencies gave me this idea. Maybe this should not happen for this amendment but it could be a method to approve the Change on Boundaries:

Only 5 Regions Approved - At least 55% of PV
Only 4 Regions Approved - At least 60% of PV
Only 3 Regions Approved - At least 65% of PV
Only 2 Regions Approved - At least 70% of PV
Only 1 Region  Approved - At least 75% of PV
No Region Approved - Not approve.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2013, 03:26:00 AM »


If we are going to make changes and create a new functional Atlasia, this is our time. I have learned to love my region, but as a Regional Executive I am willing to destroy it to create new regions so we can help improve the game.

Each of the Atlasian Governors has pledged to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitutions of our respective regions. We must not forget that.

As for Governor PJ's post, all I can say is that I don't have the power to block anything as I'm just an ordinary voter in a region made up of nearly 50 citizens. What I demand, however, is that the voice of every single Atlasian region is heard and taken seriously. If a majority of citizens in a region don't want their region to be dissolved we must respect that. Nothing is more harmful for a political simulation like Atlasia than forcing such radical changes down the throat of a large number of players. You simply risk losing many active players this way. The question is: Can Atlasia afford that? My answer to that question is no, and I therefore urge the Senate to defeat this amendment unless it includes a clause which states that the consent of the regions being changed is required.
I misunderstood the clause of the amendment, which isn't your fault, but it does not specify via public referendum.

You are right. A public referendum is a necessity, of course. Such far-reaching reform attempts must be voted on by the entire citizenry of the regions that are targeted for dissolution, not only by their governments.

Well, those of us who are strongly in favor of reform are counting on massive public approval, hence the existence of the consent process. I agree with you, there should be a referendum, but I think the majority of Atlasia matters more than a majority in all regions. What if the overwhelming majority of Atlasia votes for change and a single region votes against it with a small plurality? Should we disregard the entire process and the wishes of the rest of the country?

This is a dangerous solution, but all previous attempts have failed. God knows how hard PJ (and Tyrion as Governor) have worked to save the Pacific, and it's not enough. Should we just wait until problems are solved and the game functional again? Is there a way to address those problems without altering the dynamics of the game? I honestly can't think of one...

The procedure I have put forward, i.e. a required aye majority in all five regions for regional consolidation, is similar to the approach taken by Munich when the city was bidding for the olympic games in 2022 earlier this year. In order to be able to continue the bid for the olympics, a yes majority in a public referendum was required in all regions that were planning to host an olympic competition (the plans for an olympic bid were ultimately rejected by every single region). But the important thing is that you get the highest possible degree of democratic legitimation this way, which, considering the extremely far-reaching consequences of regional consolidation, is a necessity lest we alienate a large number of active Atlasians. I can assure you that there is a high chance that there will be a pro-consolidation majority in the Mideast if fair maps are presented which don't single out the Mideast for destruction. But so far I have got the impression (and also read comments which point in this direction) that certain proponents of consolidation primarily want to do away with the Mideast because it's a conservative region, and that's unacceptable.
There's no reason to be afraid; if a sound, fair and sensible consolidation plan is presented to the people, every single region will vote in favor of it. In order to make the process more democratic, we can therefore require the consent of all regions being changed.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2013, 03:26:14 AM »


If we are going to make changes and create a new functional Atlasia, this is our time. I have learned to love my region, but as a Regional Executive I am willing to destroy it to create new regions so we can help improve the game.

Each of the Atlasian Governors has pledged to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitutions of our respective regions. We must not forget that.

As for Governor PJ's post, all I can say is that I don't have the power to block anything as I'm just an ordinary voter in a region made up of nearly 50 citizens. What I demand, however, is that the voice of every single Atlasian region is heard and taken seriously. If a majority of citizens in a region don't want their region to be dissolved we must respect that. Nothing is more harmful for a political simulation like Atlasia than forcing such radical changes down the throat of a large number of players. You simply risk losing many active players this way. The question is: Can Atlasia afford that? My answer to that question is no, and I therefore urge the Senate to defeat this amendment unless it includes a clause which states that the consent of the regions being changed is required.
I misunderstood the clause of the amendment, which isn't your fault, but it does not specify via public referendum.

You are right. A public referendum is a necessity, of course. Such far-reaching reform attempts must be voted on by the entire citizenry of the regions that are targeted for dissolution, not only by their governments.

Well, those of us who are strongly in favor of reform are counting on massive public approval, hence the existence of the consent process. I agree with you, there should be a referendum, but I think the majority of Atlasia matters more than a majority in all regions. What if the overwhelming majority of Atlasia votes for change and a single region votes against it with a small plurality? Should we disregard the entire process and the wishes of the rest of the country?

This is a dangerous solution, but all previous attempts have failed. God knows how hard PJ (and Tyrion as Governor) have worked to save the Pacific, and it's not enough. Should we just wait until problems are solved and the game functional again? Is there a way to address those problems without altering the dynamics of the game? I honestly can't think of one...

The problem is Lumine, is that it is all built on the assumption that consolidation is the answer/will work. Granted it might be, but once the dust settles the paradigm will not have changed and in my view that is going to be an overriding factor. And there isn't much appetite for having a discussion about that paradigm, because 1) consolidation has been latched onto as the end all be all magic bullet and 2) it takes people outo f their comfort zone.

It was these two factors that drove me away from consolidation. I fear the short sighted nature of the pursuit of this will set us on a course to a regionless Atlasia, should the Consolidation happen and yet still leave us with the basic paradigm that I have mentioned. That would be a disaster for the exodus of disgruntled players would swamp the gains achieved from reducing offices.

Past experience in this game with various people, leaves me even less confident.
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bore
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« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2013, 07:40:46 AM »

In a 3 region map, the mideast, by virtue of it's position, in it's current form, is unsaveable (that may not be a word. Tongue) Besides the sensible left wing gerrymander would have the mideast (and maybe bits of the south) as a conservative pack, leaving the other 2 regions as strong left wing ones.

Having said that, this amendment emphatically does not change the regions- it allows the number of regions to be changed by a process that includes the mideast governor and 2/3rds of the atlasian population. If the mideast votes against consolidation it will almost certainly fail (unless everybody else votes for it, at which point, frankly, it deserves to succeed.)

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ZuWo
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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2013, 11:04:43 AM »

As I said, if regional consolidation is approached in a fair way and is not primarily a method to get rid of non-mainstream regions like the Mideast or the IDS enough people in all regions will support reducing the number of regions. I really don't see why there's opposition against requiring the consent of all regions being changed; it's simply the most democratic way to move forward and is also the best move from a game-playing perspective.
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bore
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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2013, 11:09:40 AM »

I don't see how potentially having consolidation stopped by a one vote margin in one small region like the pacific or midwest, while every other regions votes for it is more democratic than having 2/3rds of the people voting for it.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2013, 11:19:29 AM »

I consider this more democratic because it reflects what the people in these regions want. If a region votes against its own dissolution it means that this particular region should continue to exist, but the other regions which vote in favor of their own dissolution may still be free to merge.
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PPT Spiral
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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2013, 02:59:59 PM »

I introduce the following amendment on behalf of ZuWo:

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bore
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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2013, 03:14:18 PM »

Amendment is hostile
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2013, 03:26:32 PM »

Also, I'm motioning for cloture.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2013, 04:53:23 PM »

If Spiral's amendment goes into effect, a single region can end regional reform. I can not, in good conscience, support this.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2013, 04:57:46 PM »

If Spiral's amendment goes into effect, a single region can end regional reform. I can not, in good conscience, support this.

Right. This bill would be pointless. We may never reform the regions, but if we are at least going to discuss it, we shouldn't pass a bill that makes reform dead on arrival.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2013, 04:58:25 PM »

If Spiral's amendment goes into effect, a single region can end regional reform. I can not, in good conscience, support this.

The current version of the amendment can lead to a situation where a region is destroyed against the will of its citizens. That's extremely problematic.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2013, 05:15:48 PM »

If Spiral's amendment goes into effect, a single region can end regional reform. I can not, in good conscience, support this.

Right. This bill would be pointless. We may never reform the regions, but if we are at least going to discuss it, we shouldn't pass a bill that makes reform dead on arrival.

This bill wouldn't be pointless, it would be favorable towards the Atlasian regions. As one of the representatives of the regions, I must point out that the current version of the "Fix the Regions Amendment" is far from perfect from a regional perspective.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2013, 05:19:03 PM »

What would be extremely problematic is if no amendments passed just because one region halted everything. I advocate regional rights, I want the regions to do more, but that is practically nullification talk ZuWo.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2013, 05:32:03 PM »

This isn't an ordinary amendment with little to no effects on the way the game is played, it's an amendment which affects the core of the Atlasian regional system. As I already stated several times I am of the opinion that changes to that system should be made with great diligence and not be forced upon regions which prefer to remain intact because the consequences of such an unfortunate outcome would not be positive for Atlasia.

Anyway, I will leave the Senate floor now as I have made my point abundantly clear. The majority of the Senate may not agree with me, but I hope a sizable number of Atlasians will take my objections into consideration. And before I forget it I want to thank Senator Spiral for introducing the amendment for me.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »

I'm still not sure why the regional executives are the ideal people to draw new boundaries or why we should possibly turn the RG into the Consolidation Czar.

If consolidation is so popular, we shouldn't be afraid to open up the process, preferably with multiple delegates from each region.  Maybe even a constitutional convention.

It's a way to open up the process to the people who would be most effected by it, and that is the regional executives. I think it makes sense, and it pushes for people who are active to be a part.

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bore
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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2013, 06:23:28 PM »

I think Governor Zuwo would have a point here were regions not created beings. If the regions had come together to form atlasia, like US states did, then of course a region shouldn't be dissolved unless it so wished. But the key point is they didn't come together, atlasia created the regions. Regions are far more like counties than states.
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President Tyrion
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« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2013, 11:23:45 PM »


Seconded
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2013, 07:16:25 AM »

What would be extremely problematic is if no amendments passed just because one region halted everything. I advocate regional rights, I want the regions to do more, but that is practically nullification talk ZuWo.

Where is Zuwo advocating for the ignoring of, or declaing of, lawfully passed Federal Statute, as unconstitutional? Silly Maxwell! Tongue

I think Governor Zuwo would have a point here were regions not created beings. If the regions had come together to form atlasia, like US states did, then of course a region shouldn't be dissolved unless it so wished. But the key point is they didn't come together, atlasia created the regions. Regions are far more like counties than states.

Now this is nullification talk. The US constitution is a compact of its people, not the states. However, it preserves the rights of the state's a check on, and preventative against, the aggregation of too much power in the hands of the Federal Govenment. That is why it requires the consent of the states affected, to deprive it of its representation in the US Senate for instance, essentially a unanimous consent requirement.  Would you like to try again without reading from the John C. Calhoun/Jefferson Davis manual to the US Constitution, silly bore. Tongue


Silly Tyrion, cloture doesn't require a second. Tongue
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2013, 07:26:41 AM »

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Sponsor Feedback: Hostile
Status: A vote can be commenced this afternoon at 02:59:59 pm
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bore
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« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2013, 12:20:40 PM »

Nay
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2013, 12:42:58 PM »

There is no vote presently underway on this. The earliest is in about three hours.
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bore
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« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2013, 01:27:27 PM »

There is no vote presently underway on this. The earliest is in about three hours.

Sorry about that- I saw 2 59 and then just voted, because it's past that here.
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