Is Democracy a Means to an End or an End unto Itself?

[© tweed]

in defense of Cassius he is merely stating out loud was has been standard policy for generations.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

being a fascist i don't value democracy, except maybe in an athenian kind of way. i want my volk to have its own homeland and distinct culture.

Really weird that someone who doesn't have a volk or patriotism or nationalistic pride possesses such a sentiment.

[courts]

being a fascist i don't value democracy, except maybe in an athenian kind of way. i want my volk to have its own homeland and distinct culture.

Really weird that someone who doesn't have a volk or patriotism or nationalistic pride possesses such a sentiment.

i'm saying that half ironically in case the 'volk' wasn't a tip off. that's sort of the point, we are an atomized society. a rotten tree without roots

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

being a fascist i don't value democracy, except maybe in an athenian kind of way. i want my volk to have its own homeland and distinct culture.

Really weird that someone who doesn't have a volk or patriotism or nationalistic pride possesses such a sentiment.

i'm saying that half ironically in case the 'volk' wasn't a tip off. that's sort of the point, we are an atomized society. a rotten tree without roots

why do you care about immigration then?

your position is really extreme and seems to lack regard for human life, much like the libertarians and bigots you claim to despise. why do you care if you already believe that society is atomized?

[courts]

being a fascist i don't value democracy, except maybe in an athenian kind of way. i want my volk to have its own homeland and distinct culture.

Really weird that someone who doesn't have a volk or patriotism or nationalistic pride possesses such a sentiment.

i'm saying that half ironically in case the 'volk' wasn't a tip off. that's sort of the point, we are an atomized society. a rotten tree without roots

why do you care about immigration then?

your position is really extreme and seems to lack regard for human life, much like the libertarians and bigots you claim to despise. why do you care if you already believe that society is atomized?

i believe it's ultimately bad for both developing countries and 'the united states' on multiple levels, actually. besides the obvious problem of brain drain it allows foreign governments to ignore their problems because they can just cynically encourage people to leave. for the countries receiving immigrants it tends to fragment their societies, undermines wages and social cohesion and contribute to problems of sprawl and the unsustainable consumer economy (not to mention the trap of importing immigrants to try to avoid problems of shrinking tax base due to the 'native born' population not having enough children, on the flip side of things). also i'm anti globalization and that logically entails restricting human capital as well as foreign capital and goods as part of that.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I'll post a more thoughtful response later but I don't think anything excuses draconian measures on immigration that would immediately require police state actions involving racial profling, complete displacement of communities and likely chaos. Some practical concerns also come into play when considering the effects of tight immigration policy: with immigrants already making a large part of our society, how can you create societal cohesion when you're effectively treating them differently?

[Redalgo]

From my perspective democracy, and socialism for that matter, should be regarded as means to the end of human happiness. Liberal democracy is important to me as one among several institutional measures for promoting state accountability to the public, government by those who are more representative of the masses' values and convictions than seems likely ensue from some sort of non-democratic system, and avoiding pent-up political frustrations bound to eventually explode in flurries of revolutionary violence. If elites could be reliably trusted to keep themselves in check I would embrace some form of totalitarian, aristocratic order as seeming far better than democracy.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I agree with the OP, but voted the opposite direction. A means to end, in my view, implies very thing that the OP is concerned about. The election of a Hitler, of a Stalin, or the rise to power of a Napoleon or Lenin following a period of Democratic excess.

The voting results probably thus do not reflect much for this very reason.

[anvi]

I always had the impression that democracy, in its contemporary "indirect" forms, was thought of as a means to an end--with the end being the establishment of a just society that reflected what modern thinkers believed to be the natural rights of people.  Tyranny led, it was thought, to the unjust subjection of citizens, while their supposedly "natural" state as free, autonomous individuals required that the state be both created and governed only with their consent.  I don't believe too much of this, mind you, but I thought that was the idea.

[Antonio the Sixth]

From my perspective democracy, and socialism for that matter, should be regarded as means to the end of human happiness.

You're right at the fundamental level, but if we are to take that standard, then isn't basically everything a means to this end?

[Redalgo]

You're right at the fundamental level, but if we are to take that standard, then isn't basically everything a means to this end?

Almost - I suppose human endeavors can also be means to the end of avoiding suffering, as well!

[Antonio the Sixth]

You're right at the fundamental level, but if we are to take that standard, then isn't basically everything a means to this end?

Almost - I suppose human endeavors can also be means to the end of avoiding suffering, as well!

I'd say that true happiness, fundamentally, consists in the absence of suffering. It might sound like a banality but I think some philosopher said it.

[Vosem]

A society that is capable of having a democracy that does not enact oppressive policies and does not take advantage of people for its own enrichment is an end unto itself.

[Antonio the Sixth]

A society that is capable of having a democracy that does not enact oppressive policies and does not take advantage of people for its own enrichment is an end unto itself.

Who is "it" in this sentence? I can't interpret it in any way that makes the slightest amount of sense.

[Vosem]

A society that is capable of having a democracy that does not enact oppressive policies and does not take advantage of people for its own enrichment is an end unto itself.

Who is "it" in this sentence? I can't interpret it in any way that makes the slightest amount of sense.

The government, or the rulers, or the party in power, and so on. I had phrased that rather vaguely.

[Globus Cruciger]

Democracy is definitely a means to an end; I would gladly live under a benevolent despot.

The common citizen has the moral right to food and water and clothing and housing and education and medical care and protection from criminals, and the government has the responsibility to provide him with those things, but he does not have the moral right to participate in said government.

[Blue3]

Government itself is a means to an end, so of course democracy is too.

We don't have government just for the sake of having government.

[opebo]

I'm not a democrat.

[Person Man]

Its a means to an end, just like Government itself is. It reminds me of when Sarah Palin blamed Romney's loss on "people viewing Government as a product". I thought to myself "no sh1t, why else would we have Government at all?" If there were nothing that needed doing, there would be no Government and thus no Democracy.

[Ban my account ffs!]

It should be a means to an end.  In America in 2013, we treat it as the end itself.  We don't really care about policy or what happens when "our guy" gets elected.  It's about the election itself.  And winning.  It's a game (especially to Republicans, especially those on this website).  What happens after doesn't matter cuz it will be the same either way.