Uganda passes tough anti-gay laws.

[Frodo]

It's fine to condemn this - not just fine but right as this is atrocious - but the thought processes that lead to the word 'savages' being chosen as the means of condemnation are not particularly pretty ones.

Exactly; the word is too loaded with connotations.

I'm mildly surprised no one has used the terms 'hostiles' or 'friendlies' yet when we were arguing over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

[Sol]

The point that everyone here is trying to make is that calling Ugandans "savages" has rather unfortunate historical racial connotations, and that that attitude is the kind which encourages that kind of legislation in Africa.

And actually, a lot of homophobia in Africa is due to attitudes either introduced by European colonizers like Britain during the Victorian era- which was of course, outlandishly homophobic, or by American Missionaries.

Yeah cuz tiptoeing around their sensitive feelings, treating them like the victims of homosexual hedonism, and begging them not to kill me for being born wrong....
is totally how we should go about this.

Nope.  Savages.  Every last one who supports this law, whether they're black, green, or just have a blackened shriveled soul that they try to treat with hateful Bible verses.
SAVAGES
You think I give Russia a pass for their savagery?  As far as I'm concerned both countries need to be reeducated.

Snowguy, I see where you're coming from. I'm gay too, and I'd actually like to visit Uganda without having fear for my life. But using the word savages is not optimal in this situation. You can cuss at 'em all ya want- but "savages" can be read as racist.

[Ban my account ffs!]

The point that everyone here is trying to make is that calling Ugandans "savages" has rather unfortunate historical racial connotations, and that that attitude is the kind which encourages that kind of legislation in Africa.

And actually, a lot of homophobia in Africa is due to attitudes either introduced by European colonizers like Britain during the Victorian era- which was of course, outlandishly homophobic, or by American Missionaries.

Yeah cuz tiptoeing around their sensitive feelings, treating them like the victims of homosexual hedonism, and begging them not to kill me for being born wrong....
is totally how we should go about this.

Nope.  Savages.  Every last one who supports this law, whether they're black, green, or just have a blackened shriveled soul that they try to treat with hateful Bible verses.
SAVAGES
You think I give Russia a pass for their savagery?  As far as I'm concerned both countries need to be reeducated.

Snowguy, I see where you're coming from. I'm gay too, and I'd actually like to visit Uganda without having fear for my life. But using the word savages is not optimal in this situation. You can cuss at 'em all ya want- but "savages" can be read as racist.

They wanna imprison and/or kill me for something I didn't choose.  So f**k them.  SAVAGE SAVAGE SAVAGE.  I'd probably tell them they shouldn't worry so much about the gays and perhaps worry about making their country into a not sh**thole.

This idea that it was actually white peoples' fault because of the Christian organizations who pushed this (those people are awful savages too) or that, as white people, we should be sensitive to their delicate situation lest they be offended and start advocating the deaths of even more people...

Sorry, but no matter how many circles you twist yourself in to make your cognitive dissonance on this issue justifiable... I'm not going to blamed as a white guy for making these people hateful savages (again, the ones who support such laws... not Ugandans at large.)

Long story short:  This has nothing to do with race.  And savage is the perfect word because it (rightfully) hits close to home.  The way their savage law hits close to home for me.  Savages is wut they r.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What makes you think I 'want' this to 'be about race'?

Because you keep trying to make it that way. This isn't about race, it's a social thing. I would say the same of the Taliban or Serbian militants.

Perhaps you would, but you're not. If this isn't about race then isn't about you, Cory, and your preferred interpretations of words either.

[opebo]

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/religion/us-evangelicals-helped-write-draconian-uganda-anti-gay-bill/article/364543

[All Along The Watchtower]

The point that everyone here is trying to make is that calling Ugandans "savages" has rather unfortunate historical racial connotations, and that that attitude is the kind which encourages that kind of legislation in Africa.

And actually, a lot of homophobia in Africa is due to attitudes either introduced by European colonizers like Britain during the Victorian era- which was of course, outlandishly homophobic, or by American Missionaries.

Yeah cuz tiptoeing around their sensitive feelings, treating them like the victims of homosexual hedonism, and begging them not to kill me for being born wrong....
is totally how we should go about this.

Nope.  Savages.  Every last one who supports this law, whether they're black, green, or just have a blackened shriveled soul that they try to treat with hateful Bible verses.
SAVAGES
You think I give Russia a pass for their savagery?  As far as I'm concerned both countries need to be reeducated.

Snowguy, I see where you're coming from. I'm gay too, and I'd actually like to visit Uganda without having fear for my life. But using the word savages is not optimal in this situation. You can cuss at 'em all ya want- but "savages" can be read as racist.

They wanna imprison and/or kill me for something I didn't choose.  So f**k them.  SAVAGE SAVAGE SAVAGE.  I'd probably tell them they shouldn't worry so much about the gays and perhaps worry about making their country into a not sh**thole.

This idea that it was actually white peoples' fault because of the Christian organizations who pushed this (those people are awful savages too) or that, as white people, we should be sensitive to their delicate situation lest they be offended and start advocating the deaths of even more people...

Sorry, but no matter how many circles you twist yourself in to make your cognitive dissonance on this issue justifiable... I'm not going to blamed as a white guy for making these people hateful savages (again, the ones who support such laws... not Ugandans at large.)

Long story short:  This has nothing to do with race.  And savage is the perfect word because it (rightfully) hits close to home.  The way their savage law hits close to home for me.  Savages is wut they r.

What the ?

Um....I guess hateful  bigotry should be returned with..more hateful bigotry?

And it's obvious that you know better than this, but you still posted it.

[Cory]

Perhaps you would, but you're not. If this isn't about race then isn't about you, Cory, and your preferred interpretations of words either.

Because this thread is about Uganda.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Perhaps you would, but you're not. If this isn't about race then isn't about you, Cory, and your preferred interpretations of words either.

Because this thread is about Uganda.

Almost there! Just put you on 'thaw' for fifty-nine minutes and you might get the point. Merry Christmas.

[I Will Not Be Wrong]

And of course, Conservapedia supports these laws.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page

[NewYorkExpress]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/24/world/africa/uganda-anti-gay-bill/

It's official, President Yoweri Museveni has signed a modified version of the bill... basically the only thing the changed was "death" to "life in prison"

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Shame. The de facto colonization of African and Central American countries by American evangelicals is disgusting.

[Cory]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/24/world/africa/uganda-anti-gay-bill/

It's official, President Yoweri Museveni has signed a modified version of the bill... basically the only thing the changed was "death" to "life in prison"

And to think they ask why Westerners think less of them. Oh well, eventually they will socially evolve out of this madness as their economies develop and education proliferates.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Cory, stop talking about parts of the world that aren't North America or Western Europe. Just stop.

Shame. The de facto colonization of African and Central American countries by American evangelicals is disgusting.

^

[afleitch]

Shame. The de facto colonization of African and Central American countries by American evangelicals is disgusting.

^

____________

Cory, stop talking about parts of the world that aren't North America or Western Europe. Just stop.

You're quoting Snowstalker. And he's not wrong.

[MaxQue]

Shame. The de facto colonization of African and Central American countries by American evangelicals is disgusting.

^

____________

Cory, stop talking about parts of the world that aren't North America or Western Europe. Just stop.

You're quoting Snowstalker. And he's not wrong.

He seems to be quite aware of that.
He is agreeing with what Snowstalker said, made a line to split the message in two and said something to Cory.

[afleitch]

Shame. The de facto colonization of African and Central American countries by American evangelicals is disgusting.

^

____________

Cory, stop talking about parts of the world that aren't North America or Western Europe. Just stop.

You're quoting Snowstalker. And he's not wrong.

He seems to be quite aware of that.
He is agreeing with what Snowstalker said, made a line to split the message in two and said something to Cory.

I've never actually seen anyone use that line thing before. Meh; usually you just quote and continue

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Shame. The de facto colonization of African and Central American countries by American evangelicals is disgusting.

^

____________

Cory, stop talking about parts of the world that aren't North America or Western Europe. Just stop.

You're quoting Snowstalker. And he's not wrong.

He seems to be quite aware of that.
He is agreeing with what Snowstalker said, made a line to split the message in two and said something to Cory.

I've never actually seen anyone use that line thing before. Meh; usually you just quote and continue

Yeah, I had some trouble figuring out how to format that. I think I should just reorder the post.

[DC Al Fine]

The Ugandan Justice Minister was interviewed on As It Happens this afternoon. Pretty disappointing interview. The host was too astonished that the Ugandan didn't approve of homosexuality to ask any interesting questions. it was just the same thing over and over again:

Q: But don't you agree with [Western idea of freedom &/or sexuality]?
A: No....

It would've been nice to have some actual discussion about possible sanctions, or protests, but no, we had to confirm that the Ugandan Minister of Justice doesn't like homsexuals umpteen times

[Tender Branson]

A country full of poor, breeding ignorants - indoctrinated by religious fascists who believe the bible literally.

Then a result like this comes out of it. No surprise.

(But don't get me wrong here: I'm not a racist. I just have a problem with backwards ignorant crazy people, no matter if they happen to be black, Taliban or white FPÖ/Tea Party/Evangelical-people ...)

[Tender Branson]

Fitting frontpage of a Uganda newspaper today:

[ingemann]

I want to congratulate people here (Cory specific), you succeed in throwing the moral high ground away in an issue where it's almost impossible to throw it away.

No it's not a good idea to call Africans for "savages". That's not PC that's common sense. It's even more pathetic because there was so many other words (like bigots, homophobes, religious fanatics, fundamentalists) which could have been used, which would not have resulted in you using half this thread on defending your choice of word:

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/24/world/africa/uganda-anti-gay-bill/

It's official, President Yoweri Museveni has signed a modified version of the bill... basically the only thing the changed was "death" to "life in prison"

And to think they ask why Westerners think less of them. Oh well, eventually they will socially evolve out of this madness as their economies develop and education proliferates.

Because calling them savages definitely makes them more likely to move towards Western moral standards.

[Storebought]

Africans express their homophobia as a nationalistic, or at least anti-western, reaction all the while their governments cheerfully accept western aid; while they stand in lines outside western embassies for hours in insufferable heat for the possibility of an entrance visa to Sodom and Gomorrah; while floating on furniture in the Mediterranean wishing to crash land into Europe. Even if the African himself never sets foot off the continent, he still happily accepts the remittances that his cousins in the Gay US or the Gay UK collect to send back home. It's as if Africans cannot apprehend that the mindset that allows gays to live in relative peace in western Europe/Canada/the good parts of the US is the same mindset that allows immigrant Africans themselves to live, and perhaps thrive, in western Europe/Canada/the good parts of the US for their benefit.

I wish I could say that it would be a great learning experience to resettle these Africans to their equally nationalistic and homophobic brethren in Russia, or China, or India, or the Middle East, or the dreadful parts of the US where the American missionaries are based, and see whether thrive in each, but I know better. Africans are already present in numbers in China and the Middle East, and, for all their complaints about the bigotry and abuse they face from their non-western inhabitants, the experience has not changed their base attitudes against people they think are inferior to them.

* Yes, African migrants in Europe and the US are essentially economic migrants, and the west has a bigger economy than Russia or China. But this is an argument about values dissonance and not economics.

[Cassius]

Africans express their homophobia as a nationalistic, or at least anti-western, reaction all the while their governments cheerfully accept western aid; while they stand in lines outside western embassies for hours in insufferable heat for the possibility of an entrance visa to Sodom and Gomorrah; while floating on furniture in the Mediterranean wishing to crash land into Europe. Even if the African himself never sets foot off the continent, he still happily accepts the remittances that his cousins in the Gay US or the Gay UK collect to send back home. It's as if Africans cannot apprehend that the mindset that allows gays to live in relative peace in western Europe/Canada/the good parts of the US is the same mindset that allows immigrant Africans themselves to live, and perhaps thrive, in western Europe/Canada/the good parts of the US for their benefit.

I wish I could say that it would be a great learning experience to resettle these Africans to their equally nationalistic and homophobic brethren in Russia, or China, or India, or the Middle East, or the dreadful parts of the US where the American missionaries are based, and see whether thrive in each, but I know better. Africans are already present in numbers in China and the Middle East, and, for all their complaints about the bigotry and abuse they face from their non-western inhabitants, the experience has not changed their base attitudes against people they think are inferior to them.

I think you're generalising a little here. In addition of course, I wouldn't say that Europeans are that tolerant of African immigrants.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Africans express their homophobia as a nationalistic, or at least anti-western, reaction all the while their governments cheerfully accept western aid; while they stand in lines outside western embassies for hours in insufferable heat for the possibility of an entrance visa to Sodom and Gomorrah; while floating on furniture in the Mediterranean wishing to crash land into Europe. Even if the African himself never sets foot off the continent, he still happily accepts the remittances that his cousins in the Gay US or the Gay UK collect to send back home. It's as if Africans cannot apprehend that the mindset that allows gays to live in relative peace in western Europe/Canada/the good parts of the US is the same mindset that allows immigrant Africans themselves to live, and perhaps thrive, in western Europe/Canada/the good parts of the US for their benefit.

I wish I could say that it would be a great learning experience to resettle these Africans to their equally nationalistic and homophobic brethren in Russia, or China, or India, or the Middle East, or the dreadful parts of the US where the American missionaries are based, and see whether thrive in each, but I know better. Africans are already present in numbers in China and the Middle East, and, for all their complaints about the bigotry and abuse they face from their non-western inhabitants, the experience has not changed their base attitudes against people they think are inferior to them.

'Africans' in other parts of Africa that weren't their individual 'homelands' have had the same experiences for that matter (or even within their own countries some times).

Btw, I'm just wondering whether this is due to the nature of press reporting or the particular legacies of empire or the influence of American missionaries (who like to stick to their own language as much as possible by and large), but I'm getting the impression that these anti-gay campaigns are strongest in the formerly British parts of Africa.