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| | |-+  Gay marriage Ban Struck Down in Utah.
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Author Topic: Gay marriage Ban Struck Down in Utah.  (Read 13549 times)
JerryArkansas
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« on: December 20, 2013, 04:24:14 pm »
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Everyone, this is the case which is going to do it.  A federal judge just struck down Utah's gay marriage ban as being unconstitutional.

http://www.4utah.com/story/federal-judge-strikes-down-utahs-ban-on-same-sex-m/d/story/5YSvo4x8v0egy3PikZw0Ng
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Mr. Illini
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 04:29:44 pm »
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The first GOP state is Utah. Wow.
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afleitch
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 04:33:06 pm »
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Karma.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 04:34:46 pm »
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This is a federal case. Doesn't this mean gay marriage has to be legalized throughout the whole country?
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NVGonzalez
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 04:39:01 pm »
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 04:41:27 pm »
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This is a federal case. Doesn't this mean gay marriage has to be legalized throughout the whole country?

Not as a direct result of this decision.  This lawsuit is presumably between the state of Utah and a citizen plaintiff.  The remedy itself only applies to Utah.  But, it could eventually lead to that, if it reaches the Supreme Court and creates a federal legal precedent.
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publicunofficial
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 04:42:41 pm »
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This is a federal case. Doesn't this mean gay marriage has to be legalized throughout the whole country?


No, this case just deals with the Utah law specifically. But if the SCOTUS takes it, and they likely will, they could rule that ALL bans on gay marriage are unconstitutional.
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Solitude Without a Window
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 04:44:12 pm »
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Does that mean marriages can start being celebrated in Utah right now, or is everything suspended until the SCOTUS ruling?
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 04:48:51 pm »
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Does that mean marriages can start being celebrated in Utah right now, or is everything suspended until the SCOTUS ruling?

I think it's like the California case, where the defendants will take it to the SCOTUS. If SCOTUS refuses to hear the case, it's legal in Utah. If SCOTUS does here the case they can either punt to allow in in JUST Utah, overrule it to allow Utah to continue banning it, or finally just legalize it everywhere.
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 04:51:39 pm »
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Hilarious.
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Solitude Without a Window
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 04:53:32 pm »
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Does that mean marriages can start being celebrated in Utah right now, or is everything suspended until the SCOTUS ruling?

I think it's like the California case, where the defendants will take it to the SCOTUS. If SCOTUS refuses to hear the case, it's legal in Utah. If SCOTUS does here the case they can either punt to allow in in JUST Utah, overrule it to allow Utah to continue banning it, or finally just legalize it everywhere.

It's really hard to see how they can find the rationale to keep it in Utah only. Time for the final showdown has probably come...
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Bertolt Brecht
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 04:56:05 pm »
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Oh for f**** sake. This is happening in Utah. New Mexico, California etc... Understandable. Utah, Jesus Christ.

I'm really starting to wonder as to who governs.
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2013, 04:56:37 pm »
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Does that mean marriages can start being celebrated in Utah right now, or is everything suspended until the SCOTUS ruling?

I think it's like the California case, where the defendants will take it to the SCOTUS. If SCOTUS refuses to hear the case, it's legal in Utah. If SCOTUS does here the case they can either punt to allow in in JUST Utah, overrule it to allow Utah to continue banning it, or finally just legalize it everywhere.

I don't think that's quite right.  The posture of the Prop 8 case made that ban quite different because California had allowed gay marriage and then revoked it.  However here, the legal implication of overturning the Utah ban on gay marriage would apply in every state. 

They other minor point is that the Supreme Court's ruling is binding on the parties in the case, which would be Utah.  A broad ruling would then quickly cause other bans to be overturned in Court in short order.  The Supreme Court's ruling itself would have no binding legal effect on Ohio or Alabama.
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Supersonic
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 05:00:44 pm »
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Wowza.
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2013, 05:14:33 pm »
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This is a federal case. Doesn't this mean gay marriage has to be legalized throughout the whole country?

Not yet. The District Court only has jurisdiction over Utah. Next it'll go to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. As in the California case, expect the appellate court to issue a stay on the ruling pending appeal. If the 10th Circuit upholds the decision, that would create a binding precedent in four additional states. Because this is overturning a state ban, that would likely mean immediate legalization in those states because it's unlikely that the 10th circuit would be able to draft a narrow ruling like the 9th circuit did which limited the application to California alone.

THEN it's on to SCOTUS. If they take the case and uphold the ruling, then it's game over. Gay marriage everywhere. The other big difference between this and the Prop 8 case is that Utah will actually be defending the law, so the Supreme Court can't punt the case on a standing technicality.

Exciting stuff.
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Great Society
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 05:22:45 pm »
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I agree.  This is the case that will go to the Supreme Court.  I think Windsor vs. United States was the groundbreaking case, but the case from Utah has got to wind up coming before Justice Kennedy and I think he is going to be the fifth vote to repeal all of the marriage bans.
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2013, 05:23:40 pm »
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Wow. I think with this kind of activism lately, this is leading to a full legalization of same-sex marriage. This could be just one random disconnected case though. But If not, sad era for the SoCons and moralists.
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 05:26:09 pm »
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I agree.  This is the case that will go to the Supreme Court.  I think Windsor vs. United States was the groundbreaking case, but the case from Utah has got to wind up coming before Justice Kennedy and I think he is going to be the fifth vote to repeal all of the marriage bans.

I don't get why people think Kennedy is so rock solid on this issue. Just because he overturned DOMA? Any real conservative would be against DOMA because it violates states rights. The difference is that Kennedy isn't a hypocrite whereas most of the GOP (including Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts) is.
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LeBron FitzGerald
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 05:39:42 pm »
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o_______O

WOW. And here we were all thinking that Utah would be one of the last states to get it legalized. Utahns are going to absolutely hate this decision, but it serves those ignorant Mormons right.

This just put us on a strong and quick path to marriage equality statewide very soon though. If Utah can get it, there's no boundaries it can't get around. If the Supreme Court doesn't end up taking this case though or voting in favor of us, I would suspect West Virginia is the last state to legalize it.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 05:41:42 pm »
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I agree.  This is the case that will go to the Supreme Court.  I think Windsor vs. United States was the groundbreaking case, but the case from Utah has got to wind up coming before Justice Kennedy and I think he is going to be the fifth vote to repeal all of the marriage bans.

I don't get why people think Kennedy is so rock solid on this issue. Just because he overturned DOMA? Any real conservative would be against DOMA because it violates states rights. The difference is that Kennedy isn't a hypocrite whereas most of the GOP (including Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts) is.

No doubt Kennedy is playing his cards close to his chest on this issue. There's no way to know for sure what he'll do. But he's given a few hopeful signs. Like you said, everyone expected Kennedy to vote to overturn DOMA on state's rights grounds, but the equal protection language in his decision in Windsor was way stronger than anyone expected it to be. You had all the state's rights stuff, but then he threw in the "bare animus" language. Now its true that in that case state's rights and equal protection pointed in the same direction while when it comes time to overturn state bans the two will be in tension. However I think Kennedy knew that state courts would start citing Windsor to overturn their own bans (as NJ and New Mexico have done). If he didn't plan on that happening, he would have just couched the Windsor decision in strong states' rights language.

The other promising sign is that, contrary to expectations, Kennedy ended up dissenting on the standing issue in Hollingsworth, meaning he was ready to decide the issue on its merits.
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 05:49:19 pm »
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Wow.  Unexpected is an obvious understatement. 
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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 05:51:03 pm »
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It in all likelihood applies to Utah and Utah alone.

I thought that it would be up to the LDS hierarchy to decide when same-sex marriage goes legal in Utah. Now it may adjust on its own. So does the LDS begin a gay outreach?
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Thomas D
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 05:52:36 pm »
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This fills me with much joy.
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 05:54:02 pm »
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I'm laughing so much.

And gay couples are getting married NOW. Either these marriages get invalidated sometime during the process, which I think is unlikely considering these couples are doing nothing unlawful. The court here literally told them they can get married, similar to what happened in California and prop 8 (although I suspect a stay in the ruling will come down relatively soon). Still, having these couples married is very helpful for the pro-SSM side. It's very difficult to have one group of gay couples who were able to and did get married, and then another group of gay couples who were able to get married, but were not able to during their window of opportunity. Same situation as in the prop 8 trial.
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 05:58:51 pm »
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Suck it, bigots.
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