SWEDEN - September 14, 2014 - GUIDE and THREAD

[ingemann]

I mind them (FI), they are a single issue party, which place itself in niche, which are already full. Single issue parties are almost always bad news (through sometimes they're sadly necessary) and when their issue are already embraced by other parties, they tend to be extremists of the worst kind, and the kind of people who votes for that kind of party are the most irritating selfrightious smug douches, you will ever meet.

Most Swedish artists - ABBA-Benny included - seem to be ready to vote for the party, so in that case most Swedish artists are irritating selfrightious smug extremist douches. If that's your opinion, you're entitled to one.

Love the argument, next you will surprise me with the facts that capitalists are greedy, bikers are violent and priests are religious.

Edit: ...and this was not a dig against the Swedes, as I don't see other countries artist as better.

I take it you don't particularily appreciate music or arts in its more wider form.

I appriciate much of it, I just don't think the ability to sing, play music, paint or write books, give you any greater political insight. I also think that it take a special kind of narcissism to seek the attention of being an artist, and if you're a successful artist you will spend years with few monetary needs, surrounded by yes men and brown noses. Which is never healthy for how ones political views develop (see Tom Clancy and Jan Guillou), no one develop smart thoughts if everyone keep agreeing with you and tell how right you are.

I guess we have diamentrically different views on artists then. For me they're the most intellectual, clear-sighted people there is, in sharp contrast to many other parts of society. Without artists, there would be no John Lennon or Imagine for instance, just to take the most famous of a trillion examples. Artists dear to dream about the future in a way that other people even don't have the luxury to do (not enough time) or don't have the mental capacity to do.

Well I guess that's a disagreement, I personal think that experience and knowledge give you political insight, and I'm very grateful that it was not artists like Tom Clancy which decided the American anti-terror policies.

No idea who Tom Clancy is to be honest. Apparently he's not a big name internationally.

...

...

Yes he is a big name internationally, a very big name internationally.

[Lasitten]

I mind them (FI), they are a single issue party, which place itself in niche, which are already full. Single issue parties are almost always bad news (through sometimes they're sadly necessary) and when their issue are already embraced by other parties, they tend to be extremists of the worst kind, and the kind of people who votes for that kind of party are the most irritating selfrightious smug douches, you will ever meet.

Most Swedish artists - ABBA-Benny included - seem to be ready to vote for the party, so in that case most Swedish artists are irritating selfrightious smug extremist douches. If that's your opinion, you're entitled to one.

Love the argument, next you will surprise me with the facts that capitalists are greedy, bikers are violent and priests are religious.

Edit: ...and this was not a dig against the Swedes, as I don't see other countries artist as better.

I take it you don't particularily appreciate music or arts in its more wider form.

I appriciate much of it, I just don't think the ability to sing, play music, paint or write books, give you any greater political insight. I also think that it take a special kind of narcissism to seek the attention of being an artist, and if you're a successful artist you will spend years with few monetary needs, surrounded by yes men and brown noses. Which is never healthy for how ones political views develop (see Tom Clancy and Jan Guillou), no one develop smart thoughts if everyone keep agreeing with you and tell how right you are.

I guess we have diamentrically different views on artists then. For me they're the most intellectual, clear-sighted people there is, in sharp contrast to many other parts of society. Without artists, there would be no John Lennon or Imagine for instance, just to take the most famous of a trillion examples. Artists dear to dream about the future in a way that other people even don't have the luxury to do (not enough time) or don't have the mental capacity to do.

Well I guess that's a disagreement, I personal think that experience and knowledge give you political insight, and I'm very grateful that it was not artists like Tom Clancy which decided the American anti-terror policies.

No idea who Tom Clancy is to be honest. Apparently he's not a big name internationally.

...

...

Yes he is a big name internationally, a very big name internationally.

But Michael Crichton (writer of the of the Jurassic Park) is writing the climate policies in the US
"Together with climate scientists, Crichton was invited to testify before the Senate in September 2005, as an expert witness on global warming.[70] The speech was delivered to the Committee on Environment and Public Works in Washington, D.C."

But back to the topic, the Left seems to be quite desperate about losing votes to the F! and their youth wing is having t-shirts saying "feminist, socialist, activist". I know that is one of their core ideas nowadays but I think that the rise of F! has made the order of the words.

[eric82oslo]

I mind them (FI), they are a single issue party, which place itself in niche, which are already full. Single issue parties are almost always bad news (through sometimes they're sadly necessary) and when their issue are already embraced by other parties, they tend to be extremists of the worst kind, and the kind of people who votes for that kind of party are the most irritating selfrightious smug douches, you will ever meet.

Most Swedish artists - ABBA-Benny included - seem to be ready to vote for the party, so in that case most Swedish artists are irritating selfrightious smug extremist douches. If that's your opinion, you're entitled to one.

Love the argument, next you will surprise me with the facts that capitalists are greedy, bikers are violent and priests are religious.

Edit: ...and this was not a dig against the Swedes, as I don't see other countries artist as better.

I take it you don't particularily appreciate music or arts in its more wider form.

I appriciate much of it, I just don't think the ability to sing, play music, paint or write books, give you any greater political insight. I also think that it take a special kind of narcissism to seek the attention of being an artist, and if you're a successful artist you will spend years with few monetary needs, surrounded by yes men and brown noses. Which is never healthy for how ones political views develop (see Tom Clancy and Jan Guillou), no one develop smart thoughts if everyone keep agreeing with you and tell how right you are.

I guess we have diamentrically different views on artists then. For me they're the most intellectual, clear-sighted people there is, in sharp contrast to many other parts of society. Without artists, there would be no John Lennon or Imagine for instance, just to take the most famous of a trillion examples. Artists dear to dream about the future in a way that other people even don't have the luxury to do (not enough time) or don't have the mental capacity to do.

Well I guess that's a disagreement, I personal think that experience and knowledge give you political insight, and I'm very grateful that it was not artists like Tom Clancy which decided the American anti-terror policies.

No idea who Tom Clancy is to be honest. Apparently he's not a big name internationally.

...

...

Yes he is a big name internationally, a very big name internationally.

Now that I googled him, it turnes out that he isn't even a musician, which explains why I didn't know about him.

You can't really compare musicians and authors I think. On average, they're both radical and liberal, but I'd say that the average musician is far more radical and liberal than the average author. There are tons of moderate or conservative authors, but there are extremely few conservative musicians.

Those celebrities vividly supporting F! are almost exclusively musicians or actors, I don't even know if I've seen a single name of an author yet.

[Lurker]

LOL.

[Lurker]

It's an absurd discussion (an I fail to see the relevance of it at all), but I really doubt eric82's claim that a majority of Swedish artists are FI voters (or even potential ones).

Most poll's show them to have a ceiling of 3% or thereabouts. While Swedish artists certainly are more left-wing and likely to vote FI than most of the population, it seems crazy to think that a majority of them will vote for such a small party. Source, please!  

[eric82oslo]

It's an absurd discussion (an I fail to see the relevance of it at all), but I really doubt eric82's claim that a majority of Swedish artists are FI voters (or even potential ones).

Most poll's show them to have a ceiling of 3% or thereabouts. While Swedish artists certainly are more left-wing and likely to vote FI than most of the population, it seems crazy to think that a majority of them will vote for such a small party. Source, please!  

http://feministisktinitiativ.se/en-rost-fran-hjartat/

http://feministisktinitiativ.se/valskivan-f/

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/benny-andersson-jag-sympatiserar-med-hennes-kamp/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0GP0cvftJ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYLb887JDsI

[Lurker]

That does not prove your assertion at all though. Nobody doubts that the FI has far greater support among artists than among the general population (is that a good thing, btw?).

[eric82oslo]

That does not prove your assertion at all though. Nobody doubts that the FI has far greater support among artists than among the general population (is that a good thing, btw?).

If you hate artists it's probably a bad thing. But then I'd have to ask you why you hate artists so much. According to me, the most crucial part of any society. What would a society be without entertainment, beauty/pleasure and intellectuals? Not much I presume, other than the paradise for a guy like Dick Cheney. Basically of any enemies of humanity.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

So they're that kind of party, let's hope they don't come in.

Yes, I am certainly hoping they don't.

The hate against FI in this thread is just incredible. If there's one thing Europe clearly lacks - or the world for that matter - it's having more parties like FI.

Obviously the fight against inequality is a very important one, but the policies FI is employing doesn't actually do anything to accomplish that goal. Quite the opposite, it creates unnecessary conflict between the genders and cement certain discriminatory tendencies in society.

It's should also be noted that besides a few of the feminist issues, FI is (policy wise) almost an exact replica of V, except it has V's somewhat self-obsessed, but very charismatic, former leader heading it.

My problem with FI, as a right-winger is obviously that they're a extremist Socialist party, whereas left-wingers who dislike them do so because they're a loony fringe party with policies that annihilate centrist voters, while stealing left-wing voters for no other reason than being trendy.

Obviously you are entitled to your own opinion Eric, and as a trendy hip Oslo hipster, I'm sure FI fits you like a hand in a glove, but we're also allowed to dislike them.

Btw, FI is basically the anti-SD party, even though Reinfeldt would very much like to have Moderaterna as the anti-SD party.

Yes, well obviously. Which is another reason people vote for them, without actually knowing anything about their actual policies. I'm personally very much of the opinion however that one extreme doesn't excuse another. Stalin was the most anti-Hitler, didn't make Stalin into a good leader, now did it.

For me they're the most intellectual, clear-sighted people there is, in sharp contrast to many other parts of society.

...

So this is why no one on this forum seems to take you seriously.

I appriciate much of it, I just don't think the ability to sing, play music, paint or write books, give you any greater political insight. I also think that it take a special kind of narcissism to seek the attention of being an artist, and if you're a successful artist you will spend years with few monetary needs, surrounded by yes men and brown noses. Which is never healthy for how ones political views develop (see Tom Clancy and Jan Guillou), no one develop smart thoughts if everyone keep agreeing with you and tell how right you are.

You know, we've had our arguments in the past (especially considering a certain Danish PM that should not be named) but on this I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Lurker]

So this is why no one on this forum seems to take you seriously.

I didn't want to make a personal attack (least not towards the only active Norwegian in this place), but I have to agree on this. What a ridiculous hack.

[eric82oslo]

Btw, FI is basically the anti-SD party, even though Reinfeldt would very much like to have Moderaterna as the anti-SD party.

Yes, well obviously. Which is another reason people vote for them, without actually knowing anything about their actual policies. I'm personally very much of the opinion however that one extreme doesn't excuse another. Stalin was the most anti-Hitler, didn't make Stalin into a good leader, now did it.

Churchill was obviously the anti-Hitler. Those not getting that one right obviously don't know much about history. Stalin's policies wasn't anything other than pro-Stalin. That's why he hated all other communists besides himself. That's why he executed so many of his nearest coworkers. Stalin was one of the worst terrorists in the history of humankind, and to claim that Stalin has anything in common with a modern liberal and radical equality party is ludicrous. Stalin would without a doubt have executed Lenin, Marx and Engels too if he got the chance.

[eric82oslo]

So this is why no one on this forum seems to take you seriously.

I didn't want to make a personal attack (least not towards the only active Norwegian in this place), but I have to agree on this. What a ridiculous hack.

Lol. Just because you're a conservative and I'm quite the contrary, you have to hate me.

I guess you have a problem with hating a lot of people in your society then, if you think I'm too extreme for your own liking. I'm not particularily extreme actually. I'm somewhere between F!, the world's green parties and the world's left parties + the world's liberal parties (in Norway Venstre, in Sweden Folkpartiet, in UK Liberal Democrats, even some parts of Libertarians agenda is extremely appealing to me), but I've never seriously considered voting for a semi-communist party as I'm appalled by communism's history as well as with it's present day rethoric (for instance reading Klassekampen is one of the worst experiences one can have, it has even less to do with common people's every day lives than some extreme right wing publications, and it's extremely poorly written as well in my opinion).

[eric82oslo]

So they're that kind of party, let's hope they don't come in.

So this is why no one on this forum seems to take you seriously.

It's news to me that noone takes me seriously. Where do you have that from?

I might not be to everyone's liking because I'm partisan, but so are at least 90% who write here, you included. I've never taken you very seriously either, as you're obviously a hack for the right wing Alliance.

[Lurker]

So this is why no one on this forum seems to take you seriously.

I didn't want to make a personal attack (least not towards the only active Norwegian in this place), but I have to agree on this. What a ridiculous hack.

Lol. Just because you're a conservative and I'm quite the contrary, you have to hate me.

I guess you have a problem with hating a lot of people in your society then, if you think I'm too extreme for your own liking. I'm not particularily extreme actually. I'm somewhere between F!, the world's green parties and the world's left parties + the world's liberal parties (in Norway Venstre, in Sweden Folkpartiet, in UK Liberal Democrats, even some parts of Libertarians agenda is extremely appealing to me), but I've never seriously considered voting for a semi-communist party as I'm appalled by communism's history as well with it's present day rethoric (for instance reading Klassekampen is one of the worst experiences one can have, it has even less to do with common people's every day lives than some extreme right wing publications, and it's extremely poorly written as well in my opinion).

Wrong on all counts. I don't "hate you", obviously (why would I?) - just think you appear to be a bit hackish a lot of the time (particularly when it comes to predictions about US politics.)

Also, I wouldn't call myself a conservative either, not sure where you get that impression.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Btw, FI is basically the anti-SD party, even though Reinfeldt would very much like to have Moderaterna as the anti-SD party.

Yes, well obviously. Which is another reason people vote for them, without actually knowing anything about their actual policies. I'm personally very much of the opinion however that one extreme doesn't excuse another. Stalin was the most anti-Hitler, didn't make Stalin into a good leader, now did it.

Churchill was obviously the anti-Hitler. Those not getting that one right obviously don't know much about history. Stalin's policies wasn't anything other than pro-Stalin. That's why he hated all other communists besides himself. That's why he executed so many of his nearest coworkers. Stalin was one of the worst terrorists in the history of humankind, and to claim that Stalin has anything in common with a modern liberal and radical equality party is ludicrous. Stalin would without a doubt have executed Lenin, Marx and Engels too if he got the chance.

1) Communism and Fascism are clearly the two historical antagonists to each other, not Fascism and Conservatism, so don't you come here and try to call me out on my history knowledge.

2) You were clearly missing my point if you thought I were equating FI to Stalin. But you know... since you brought it up, you should probably watch this fun video.    

I might not be to everyone's liking because I'm partisan, but so are at least 90% who write here, you included. I've never taken you very seriously either, as you're obviously a hack for the right wing Alliance.

Oh yes of course... because I obviously never criticize the Alliance on here... and especially not my own party.
 

Also, I wouldn't call myself a conservative either, not sure where you get that impression.

The fact that you disagree with him obviously makes you a Conservative.

[eric82oslo]

So this is why no one on this forum seems to take you seriously.

I didn't want to make a personal attack (least not towards the only active Norwegian in this place), but I have to agree on this. What a ridiculous hack.

Lol. Just because you're a conservative and I'm quite the contrary, you have to hate me.

I guess you have a problem with hating a lot of people in your society then, if you think I'm too extreme for your own liking. I'm not particularily extreme actually. I'm somewhere between F!, the world's green parties and the world's left parties + the world's liberal parties (in Norway Venstre, in Sweden Folkpartiet, in UK Liberal Democrats, even some parts of Libertarians agenda is extremely appealing to me), but I've never seriously considered voting for a semi-communist party as I'm appalled by communism's history as well with it's present day rethoric (for instance reading Klassekampen is one of the worst experiences one can have, it has even less to do with common people's every day lives than some extreme right wing publications, and it's extremely poorly written as well in my opinion).

Wrong on all counts. I don't "hate you", obviously (why would I?) - just think you appear to be a bit hackish a lot of the time (particularly when it comes to predictions about US politics.)

Also, I wouldn't call myself a conservative either, not sure where you get that impression.

What my predictions are for future elections are of course highly personal, so not sure why you would take such a degree of offence towards them.

Well conservative was a bit of a bold statement. My feeling is that you're circulating between Venstre and Høyre most of the time. Which isn't necessarily such a bad place to be, although I really hate Høyre's economic policies.

If you wondered why, check out these article for instance:

http://e24.no/makro-og-politikk/siv-og-erna-kunne-fjernet-formuesskatten-for-minst-435-000-nordmenn/23282589

http://e24.no/makro-og-politikk/victor-norman-kritiserer-regjeringens-skattepolitikk/23257958

When you prefer helping 852 extremely fortunate individuals rather than lowering the tax rates for more than 400,000 individuals, there's something very wrong with your priorities.

And it's commonly known by this point that Høyre, not Frp, is the party for the very rich elite at this point, so please don't put the blame at Siv Jensen, as her entire party would immediately unanimously disapprove. I hate Frp more than almost anything else, but at the issue of social justice they are at least somewhat right (compared to Høyre at least, which are the beasts in the closet).

[eric82oslo]

Btw, FI is basically the anti-SD party, even though Reinfeldt would very much like to have Moderaterna as the anti-SD party.

Yes, well obviously. Which is another reason people vote for them, without actually knowing anything about their actual policies. I'm personally very much of the opinion however that one extreme doesn't excuse another. Stalin was the most anti-Hitler, didn't make Stalin into a good leader, now did it.

Churchill was obviously the anti-Hitler. Those not getting that one right obviously don't know much about history. Stalin's policies wasn't anything other than pro-Stalin. That's why he hated all other communists besides himself. That's why he executed so many of his nearest coworkers. Stalin was one of the worst terrorists in the history of humankind, and to claim that Stalin has anything in common with a modern liberal and radical equality party is ludicrous. Stalin would without a doubt have executed Lenin, Marx and Engels too if he got the chance.

1) Communism and Fascism are clearly the two historical antagonists to each other, not Fascism and Conservatism, so don't you come here and try to call me out on my history knowledge.

Then how do you explain that Hitler and Stalin had a very solemn accord for a very long time on not to invade each other (until Hitler decided to invade Russia) while Churchill was literally appalled by how lenient Chamberlain had been towards Hitler and constantly giving him new concessions. Obviously Churchill hated the guts out of Hitler in a much stronger degree than the self-obsessed, narcissist, Muammar Gaddafi-like creature Stalin was.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Amazing stuff.

[Lurker]

What my predictions are for future elections are of course highly personal, so not sure why you would take such a degree of offence towards them.

Well conservative was a bit of a bold statement. My feeling is that you're circulating between Venstre and Høyre most of the time. Which isn't necessarily such a bad place to be, although I really hate Høyre's economic policies.
[...]

I really think you're reading way too much into my statements. I don't think I ever felt "offended"  in any way about anything you have written.

As for my political allegiance in Norway, I would have some trouble placing myself, though Høyre at this time would not be an option for me for different reasons - the close cooperation with Frp being a primary one. I actually voted Labour last time around (Venstre was indeed an option, and if they had pledged not to support a Frp goverment I might have supported them).

Though we are way off track now (of what is a pretty damn strange discussion anyway).

[Zanas]

Mind : blown. Scandinavians seem like a bunch of fun people to watch argue between themselves. They must be hilarious at parties.

[Lurker]

That does not prove your assertion at all though. Nobody doubts that the FI has far greater support among artists than among the general population (is that a good thing, btw?).

If you hate artists it's probably a bad thing. But then I'd have to ask you why you hate artists so much. According to me, the most crucial part of any society. What would a society be without entertainment, beauty/pleasure and intellectuals? Not much I presume, other than the paradise for a guy like Dick Cheney. Basically of any enemies of humanity.

Looks like I never really replied to this; sorry, but really can't be bothered. There are so many non-sequiturs here that I wouldn't know where to start.

[eric82oslo]

What my predictions are for future elections are of course highly personal, so not sure why you would take such a degree of offence towards them.

Well conservative was a bit of a bold statement. My feeling is that you're circulating between Venstre and Høyre most of the time. Which isn't necessarily such a bad place to be, although I really hate Høyre's economic policies.
[...]

I really think you're reading way too much into my statements. I don't think I ever felt "offended"  in any way about anything you have written.

As for my political allegiance in Norway, I would have some trouble placing myself, though Høyre at this time would not be an option for me for different reasons - the close cooperation with Frp being a primary one. I actually voted Labour last time around (Venstre was indeed an option, and if they had pledged not to support a Frp goverment I might have supported them).

Though we are way off track now (of what is a pretty damn strange discussion anyway).

Hehe, I felt the Venstre vibe really. My previous experience with random Venstre voters is that they hate ultra left parties (in Norway primarily SV & Rødt, in Sweden V & F!) more than anyone else, including Høyre and Frp voters. Which I find ultra comical as 80-85% of the manifestos of Venstre and SV are basically identical (and which made it so hard for me to chose between the two at age 14 as well, though I ultimately chose SV because they placed more emphasis on anti-racism, equality, class struggle, anti-militarism and such).

[Gustaf]

So...I heard there is a Swedish election going on, is there a thread about that somewhere?

[Tayya]

Can't we just skip that whole election thing? Just rehash an old one (how about 2002?) instead.

[Tender Branson]

The lead is now down to 7% (ca. 46-39), with the SD gaining and gaining.