A Problem with Liberal Protestantism

[DC Al Fine]

I attended a United Church of Canada service on Christmas Eve. For the non-Canadians the United Church is the largest Protestant denomination in Canada with a very liberal leadership, but the congregation I worshiped with is in a small town and not at the forefront of the culture wars.

I went into the service with my aunt, ready to walk out when someone blasphemed the trinity or denied the resurrection. Instead I was struck by how unoffensive and trivial the service was. This, highlights a big problem for the liberal churches; there's no reason to attend them.

Instead of hearing a sermon about how gay marriage is a human right, or Jesus not being the son of god, we got to hear the children talk about what they thought angels could do ("angels can do cartwheels"), an interpretive dance set to 1990's country band "Alabama" about how angels are watching over us, and a sermon given by a matronly lady about Jesus wanting us to be nice around the holidays.

Now yes, the church preached Christ without a cross, but there was no anti-Christian heresy to fume at. The main thing I thought was "what's the point?". If I, a devout conservative Christian think the service is pointless, what must the teenager who thinks church is lame or the husband who's wife nags him to go to church think? If the mainline churches want to retain members and grow their churches, they must give people a reason to go. The faith that was preached on Christmas Eve was for old ladies and children and there was nothing that you you couldn't get from the rest of the world.

There is no vitality in churches like this, and they seemed destined for a long slow death. Anyways, that's my rant. Has any of you experienced this problem in your churches? Have any of the liberal Protestants here seen a seen more compelling services that show more promise at retaining people without going the conservative route?

[ZuWo]

I made similar observations. Two or three years ago I attended a couple of Sunday services and a Christmas mass at my local Reformed church (the Reformed Church is the main Swiss protestant church and also recognized by the state; in its current form it is dominated by liberal protestants). The pastor was a friendly elderly German man who looked dignified in his long black robe and the atmosphere in the baroque church was solemn. The sermons were always similar; the Bible played a minor role and every word the pastor said was carefully planned. Unfortunately, the sermons were not thought-provoking at all and full of feel-good platitudes and vagueness. The church's motto seemed to be not to offend anyone and include everybody regardless of their concrete religious views, which is only possible if delicate issues are simply not mentioned (that's not surprising considering the considerable number of pastors who openly admit that they don't even believe in God). You don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus? No problem, just regard it as a metaphor. You don't even believe in God? That's ok, you can interpret "God" as a blooming flower in the garden, a dear friend or a moment of peace and happiness.

Considering these services that seemed extremely superficial and devoid of meaning to me, I can understand the people who stop attending such a church very well. You don't need the Bible, Jesus or God to try to become a better human being, you can just as well read certain philosophical treatises or find other random sources of inspiration. The Swiss Reformed Church has, in my view, given up its value because preaching a feel-good gospel for everybody is all it is about.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

The services at my church tend to be compelling because our clergy adopted the expository style of preaching--to which you'd think more people in the Episcopal Church would realize the liturgical year and lectionary lend themselves quite well--and we're one of the few churches in our area with which I'm familiar that takes eschatology very seriously. If our preachers didn't take the time to seriously examine the week's readings and remind us that we're living in the shadow of the Four Last Things we probalby would indeed be reduced to statements of banal theological ineptitude in between making vague noises about left-liberal or tepidly social-democratic political causes during the announcements, and that's the case in a lot of other liberal Protestant churches to which I've been, but within the context of our diocese we're relatively High Church, within the context of the Episcopal Church our diocese is relatively moderate, and while we do have something of the standard liberal Christian demographic problem in terms of the people who come to our weekly services, and we have a parish culture that takes suffering and death seriously--I don't hear all that much about sin, but I hear a lot about suffering and death and salvation, and they're not sugarcoated.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I agree that feel-goodism is a problem for liberal sects.  Yet it need not be the case.  In the UU Christmas eve service I attended, mention was made of the Gospel according to Seuss (i.e., How The Grinch Stole Christmas,and blame me and not my pastor for calling it a gospel) as an example of how in all of us there is room for improvement, to cease being grinchily selfish.  Granted, if you are looking for a lot of Christology, you aren't going to get that from a UU church with its absence of defining creeds.  However, one reason I go to that one rather than the UU church that is some fifteen minutes closer to home is that while not exhorting one upon a particular path, it does stress the need for us to engage in not only service to others but in self-improvement as we progress along our chosen spiritual paths.  I wouldn't mind being a member of a definitively Christian church instead, but I am unaware of any non-Trinitarian (and non-Mormon) Christian churches operating in my area, and I am too principled to join a Trinitarian church when I am at most agnostic towards Trinitarianism.

[ilikeverin]

Instead of hearing a sermon about how gay marriage is a human right, or Jesus not being the son of god,

Is that really what you think liberal Christianity is about?  The former would be considered hopelessly political.  Injecting politics into sermons is what "you people" do; we differentiate ourselves by not bringing up such issues at the pulpit... to our detriment sometimes, I think.  One of the things I like about my current church is that they're not as shy about such things, though we still usually avoid it during the sermon.  The latter is ridiculous.  Many of us believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and, in any case, such disputes aren't really what we're "about".  A good liberal Christian service, like Ernest says, is about service and self-improvement.  It's about challenging the status quo by using the example of self-sacrifice and flaunting of social boundaries embodied in Christ as a model for one's own conduct.  At its best, it's profoundly unsettling - not because of a laundry list of sins that you feel like you've committed, but because you feel like somehow there must be something more that you can do to get rid of the selfishness and truly help those around you.  Yet it's the sort of spiritual dishevelment that compels action.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Instead of hearing a sermon about how gay marriage is a human right, or Jesus not being the son of god,

Is that really what you think liberal Christianity is about?  The former would be considered hopelessly political.  Injecting politics into sermons is what "you people" do; we differentiate ourselves by not bringing up such issues at the pulpit... to our detriment sometimes, I think.  One of the things I like about my current church is that they're not as shy about such things, though we still usually avoid it during the sermon.  The latter is ridiculous.  Many of us believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and, in any case, such disputes aren't really what we're "about".  A good liberal Christian service, like Ernest says, is about service and self-improvement.  It's about challenging the status quo by using the example of self-sacrifice and flaunting of social boundaries embodied in Christ as a model for one's own conduct.  At its best, it's profoundly unsettling - not because of a laundry list of sins that you feel like you've committed, but because you feel like somehow there must be something more that you can do to get rid of the selfishness and truly help those around you.  Yet it's the sort of spiritual dishevelment that compels action.

To be fair, some liberal congregations are like that.  The UU in Columbia at times seems more like a meeting place of leftist Democrats than a church in its activities.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I thought I'd take a quick break from my break to respond to some of this.

DC, I really think you're looking at this (no surprises from me) the wrong way.  The point of liberal churches isn't to offend people.  Quite the contrary.  The point of liberal churches is to bring people together and leave the controversy behind.  I've only been to two types of Protestant church services this year (one visit to the Lutheran church, and the UCC church I attend weekly).  We simply don't talk about gays and abortion.  We don't deny the Trinity.  We don't preach a "Christ without a cross" theology.  The only reference I've heard thus far to social issues is when my UCC pastor stated that we are an "open and affirming" church (basically UCC lingo for 'gay friendly.')  At Bible Study, we don't even talk about the 'right vs. wrong' ways to interpret Scripture.  The sermons are always more about life itself than what the Scripture says (though we do always read a few passages before the sermon begins).

Perhaps it's accurate to say we are more 'big tent' than 'liberal,' but essentially most liberal Protestant denominations don't want to brand themselves that way out of fear of alienating people.  Now, as someone who wants to be ordained, I can't say this will be the exact same route I take when I counsel to others, but it's still preferable to the usual fire and brimstone style of preaching.  A church that says nothing about gays is better than one that condemns them.  If people are more drawn to controversy than they are to Christ, that's a poor reflection on our society - not on the churches.

With that in mind, I still think Christians need to make church 'cool' again.  Maybe our messaging could use some tweaking.  Maybe the services themselves need to be revamped.  But that's not the only problem the Christian churches - both liberal and conservative - are facing.

Ilikeverin put it best.  If you want to hear all about how gay marriage is a fundamental human right or why abortion should be legal, go to a Democratic fundraiser.  You can compel people to act to improve society without getting too political.  But just as God's house is not a place of profit or trade, it is not a place of political discourse.  I think that liberal churches understand that better than conservative ones do, and that's why I'm comfortable sticking with my church.

And Ernest - that's definitely not a surprise.  After all, aren't UU churches better understood as places of discussion than houses of worship?  I've never been to a UU service before, but that's what I imagine it to be like in most cases.  Obviously there has to be some form of theological unity among members for the services to appear consistent and harmonious.

[Beet]

I kind of see Al's point though. Sure, it's good that liberal churches aren't allowing themselves to just turn into an arm of a political party (and in fact, if a church is looking for 'mission' through politics, money, etc. or anything like that I'd say it's the devil's work - it creates a false sense of purpose, which is worse than no sense of purpose).

But as ZuWo said, the church has to be about more than 'how to be a good person' and random pieces of inspiration. Or else we're going to get to the point where people who feel that there isn't anything missing in their lives just don't see the purpose of church, either. There have to be trade offs. I think one of the toxic things that a church can do is to appear to be over-appeasing of the outside world, there has to be a certain apparent fundamentalism there that evades the well known evils of 'fundamentalism'.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The issue is that, for whatever silly reasons, liberal and non-liberal Protestants have broken from the church founded by Christ Himself and will burn in hell for it.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

The issue is that, for whatever silly reasons, liberal and non-liberal Protestants have broken from the church founded by Christ Himself and will burn in hell for it.

*Hell. And yes.

[Cassius]

The issue is that, for whatever silly reasons, liberal and non-liberal Protestants have broken from the church founded by Christ Himself and will burn in hell for it.

This ().

But on a more serious note, whilst I'm not an expert on the differences between all the Protestant sects, this does seem very reminiscent of CofE services that I have attended in the past. Basically, the problem here is that services like this would have been fine in an age where virtually all people (in the west) were 'culturally Christian', in other words, if asked they would automatically say they believed in the God of Christian tradition. However, they are not in an age where the default setting for many people is increasingly becoming 'I'm an atheist'. This has been a particular problem for the CofE, which traditionally was very good that the inoffensive type of worship that you described (which largely came about due to it's origins as a compromise Church, and the fact that it was the default religion for the majority of British people for a long time), which seems increasingly irrelevant in today's society. You can see the collapse that the CofE has undergone over the past half-century (not to say that other Christian denominations haven't been hit, but the CofE particularly so), which, in my opinion, is largely because it has become more of a social convention than anything else. This is going quite of track from your original point in this thread, but I do think it's relevant, since the CofE is a fairly archetypal 'middle of the road' Protestant Church with occasional tendencies toward the liberal side. Of course, it has other problems, but I think the point that you picked out, being that Churches like this simply don't generate much enthusiasm, is very relevant to it.

[ilikeverin]

Instead of hearing a sermon about how gay marriage is a human right, or Jesus not being the son of god,

Is that really what you think liberal Christianity is about?  The former would be considered hopelessly political.  Injecting politics into sermons is what "you people" do; we differentiate ourselves by not bringing up such issues at the pulpit... to our detriment sometimes, I think.  One of the things I like about my current church is that they're not as shy about such things, though we still usually avoid it during the sermon.  The latter is ridiculous.  Many of us believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and, in any case, such disputes aren't really what we're "about".  A good liberal Christian service, like Ernest says, is about service and self-improvement.  It's about challenging the status quo by using the example of self-sacrifice and flaunting of social boundaries embodied in Christ as a model for one's own conduct.  At its best, it's profoundly unsettling - not because of a laundry list of sins that you feel like you've committed, but because you feel like somehow there must be something more that you can do to get rid of the selfishness and truly help those around you.  Yet it's the sort of spiritual dishevelment that compels action.

To be fair, some liberal congregations are like that.  The UU in Columbia at times seems more like a meeting place of leftist Democrats than a church in its activities.

Occasionally, but I think they're far rarer than the "inoffensive chatter about nothing much" congregations that DC is (rightly) denigrating in the initial post.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

And Ernest - that's definitely not a surprise.  After all, aren't UU churches better understood as places of discussion than houses of worship?  I've never been to a UU service before, but that's what I imagine it to be like in most cases.  Obviously there has to be some form of theological unity among members for the services to appear consistent and harmonious.

Yes and no.  The main service is often much as you suggest, tho sometimes with a focus upon one particular faith tradition. But we do have various meetings beyond the main one that will often focus upon one particular faith tradition.  And there are groups such as the UUCF, UUBF, CUUPS, HUUmanists and several others that provide resources for those of one particular spiritual tradition, tho the UU church I attend is small enough that it has no subsidiary groups meeting there.  The one in Columbia has a CUUPS (Paganism) chapter, the one in Aiken is the closest one to me with a UUBF (Buddhism) chapter.  Alas, there are no UUCF (Christianity) chapters in this state.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The issue is that, for whatever silly reasons, liberal and non-liberal Protestants have broken from the church founded by Christ Himself and will burn in hell for it.

you are not funny

[Hatman 🍁]

As an actual member of the United Church, I must speak out here.

DC, they don't talk about those things on Christmas Eve. You have to go on a regular Sunday service, and preferably a more "urban" church.  Remember, the UC has Presbyterian democratic traditions, and individual churches can have elections about what direction they go. That's why some UC churches do gay marriages and some don't.

Christmas Eve is a big night for the UC. Why alienate all those new visitors by getting political? My church usually has like 50 bums in the seat every sunday, but on Christmas Eve there was probably 500 people.

[minionofmidas]

The issue is that, for whatever silly reasons, liberal and non-liberal Protestants have broken from the church founded by Christ Himself and will burn in hell for it.

*Hell. And yes.

At Ephesus. In 431.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You do actually make a few useful points, but this is basically just a blatant exercise in concern trolling.

[All Along The Watchtower]

The problem with "liberal Protestantism" (whatever that means) is that liberal churches try to emphasize both "personal salvation" and "social justice", yet in practice often end up with the kind of Moderate Hero, inoffensive,  (largely) educated white upper-middle class form of borderline relativistic  theology that doesn't have much practicality to or relevance in anyone's actual life.

Why go to the trouble of going to church, when you can just say you're "personally spiritual, but not religious" (hell, even many evangelical conservatives will say this-"It's a relationship, not a religion!")