Terry Shiavo Poll
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  Terry Shiavo Poll
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Poll
Question: Should Terry Shiavo be kept alive or let die?
#1
(D) Keep her alive
 
#2
(D) Let her die
 
#3
(R) Keep her alive
 
#4
(R) Let her die
 
#5
(I/O) Keep her alive
 
#6
(I/O) Let her die
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 89

Author Topic: Terry Shiavo Poll  (Read 21232 times)
Wakie
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« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2005, 06:24:12 PM »

Wakie, she's aware and has repeatedly responded to multiple various stimuli.

So says you.  But there are several physicians who say otherwise!

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That is exactly what I said.  Go back and read my post.

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The man said Terry wouldn't want to be kept alive this way.  He's been fighting for years to let her die.  He's been told that she isn't going to recover.  That she isn't coming back.  But you criticize him for finding a new life but still fighting to honor her wish to die with dignity.  His situation is not ideal.  But imagine your wife had told you she wouldn't want to be kept alive.  Now you're fighting with her parents and the federal govt over the issue.  And you're being criticized for having found a new life!
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danwxman
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« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2005, 08:14:07 PM »

Wakie, she's aware and has repeatedly responded to multiple various stimuli.

Not really. Did you see the video where she supposedly follows the Mickey Mouse balloon? Well, the father actually moved it over her face six times. Her eyes only followed it one of those times (and you can barely notice)...but they use that one time as evidence that she responds to stimuli and ignore the other five times she didn't flinch.
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The Duke
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« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2005, 08:39:43 PM »

You know those science movies where some scientist is trying to warn everyone that the world is about to suffer a new ice age/volcanic eruption/asteroid hit/aggressive martian invaders?  And some General comes up with a series of flat excuses why everything is fine, and some political advisor tells some barely believable President that the world is safe and he should make more TV appearances?  Just a series of preposterous excuses why the scientist is wrong.

That's sort of how this is.  Except they are preposterous excuses why a woman must be starved to death.
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J. J.
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« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2005, 09:23:02 PM »

You know those science movies where some scientist is trying to warn everyone that the world is about to suffer a new ice age/volcanic eruption/asteroid hit/aggressive martian invaders?  And some General comes up with a series of flat excuses why everything is fine, and some political advisor tells some barely believable President that the world is safe and he should make more TV appearances?  Just a series of preposterous excuses why the scientist is wrong.

That's sort of how this is.  Except they are preposterous excuses why a woman must be starved to death.

This more like the "scientist" saying, "Gravity is failing and will be one half of it what it was in 10 seconds."  The "President" drops a pen and then drops it 20 seconds later and it still falls at the same rate.

Some of this you can verify fairly easily, though simple experiments.  The parents haven't done it. 
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The Duke
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« Reply #129 on: March 22, 2005, 10:43:08 PM »

You know those science movies where some scientist is trying to warn everyone that the world is about to suffer a new ice age/volcanic eruption/asteroid hit/aggressive martian invaders?  And some General comes up with a series of flat excuses why everything is fine, and some political advisor tells some barely believable President that the world is safe and he should make more TV appearances?  Just a series of preposterous excuses why the scientist is wrong.

That's sort of how this is.  Except they are preposterous excuses why a woman must be starved to death.

This more like the "scientist" saying, "Gravity is failing and will be one half of it what it was in 10 seconds."  The "President" drops a pen and then drops it 20 seconds later and it still falls at the same rate.

Some of this you can verify fairly easily, though simple experiments.  The parents haven't done it. 

If the parents conducted your "experiment", it would not be admissible in court under the standards the judges have set up.

Here's an experiment that would be admissible in court that Schiavo has refused to allow take place:  A PETS scan.  A PETS scan is a scan of the brain that will allow us to determine accurately what Terri Schiavo's brain function is.  Instead of doctors who haven't actually examined her brain and concluded on little or no actual evidence that she has no mental capacity, we'd actually have scientific data!  Of course, not one person on the kill Terri side, including you (Who linked to a site explaining knee reflexes when he couldn't find something on eye reflexes that supported his position) has suggested any medical examination, you just expect us to take your word for it, and any time we present evidence that contradicts you, you cover your eyes and ears and mutter somethng about 19 Judges and 600 Doctors and 300,000 state certified fortune tellers have said she won't make it.

JJ, you've been every Democrat's favorite Republican for some time.  You're always the first one to ask a left wing judge for a metaphorical curb job.  Its no surprise to me that you've sat here insisting that Terri Schiavo has to die.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2005, 12:37:41 AM »

This was the actual poll question in the ABC poll that showed a 70-29% result in whether Terri Schiavo should live or die.

"As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible."

Talk about a leading poll question, geez...
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Rob
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« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2005, 01:32:51 AM »

This was the actual poll question in the ABC poll that showed a 70-29% result in whether Terri Schiavo should live or die.

"As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible."

Talk about a leading poll question, geez...

The question is slanted, but everything in it is true.
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The Duke
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« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2005, 01:34:38 AM »

This was the actual poll question in the ABC poll that showed a 70-29% result in whether Terri Schiavo should live or die.

"As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible."

Talk about a leading poll question, geez...

The question is slanted, but everything in it is true.

Except that she is not on life support and is not unconscious, nor has her condition been determined irreversible.
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Rob
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« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2005, 01:38:13 AM »

This was the actual poll question in the ABC poll that showed a 70-29% result in whether Terri Schiavo should live or die.

"As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible."

Talk about a leading poll question, geez...

The question is slanted, but everything in it is true.

Except that she is not on life support and is not unconscious, nor has her condition been determined irreversible.

*Shrug* I don't care either way. Hopefully once she dies, the whole thing will be forgotten.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2005, 01:57:52 AM »

Except that she is not on life support.
For the purpose of the law, gastric feeding tubes are classified as a medical intervention that is a form of life support.

Now, if you want to argue that the legal definition of life support and the like should be changed, fine do that, but under current law unless the parents succeed in their attempt to shop around for an activist judge who doesn't bother to follow law and precedent, this phase of this discussion will be over in a week or so as her body finally catches up with what her mind did 15 years ago.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2005, 01:59:14 AM »

Except that she is not on life support.
For the purpose of the law, gastric feeding tubes are classified as a medical intervention that is a form of life support.

Now, if you want to argue that the legal definition of life support and the like should be changed, fine do that, but under current law unless the parents succeed in their attempt to shop around for an activist judge who doesn't bother to follow law and precedent, this phase of this discussion will be over in a week or so as her body finally catches up with what her mind did 15 years ago.

Ironically feeding tubes were NOT considered life support 5-10 years ago in FL.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2005, 02:01:54 AM »

Except that she is not on life support.
For the purpose of the law, gastric feeding tubes are classified as a medical intervention that is a form of life support.

Now, if you want to argue that the legal definition of life support and the like should be changed, fine do that, but under current law unless the parents succeed in their attempt to shop around for an activist judge who doesn't bother to follow law and precedent, this phase of this discussion will be over in a week or so as her body finally catches up with what her mind did 15 years ago.

Ironically feeding tubes were NOT considered life support 5-10 years ago in FL.

What changed that?  I honestly don't know much Florida law.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2005, 02:03:04 AM »

Except that she is not on life support.
For the purpose of the law, gastric feeding tubes are classified as a medical intervention that is a form of life support.

Now, if you want to argue that the legal definition of life support and the like should be changed, fine do that, but under current law unless the parents succeed in their attempt to shop around for an activist judge who doesn't bother to follow law and precedent, this phase of this discussion will be over in a week or so as her body finally catches up with what her mind did 15 years ago.

Ironically feeding tubes were NOT considered life support 5-10 years ago in FL.

What changed that?  I honestly don't know much Florida law.

I'm not sure. I caught it on the radio.
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The Duke
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« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2005, 02:06:37 AM »

Except that she is not on life support.
For the purpose of the law, gastric feeding tubes are classified as a medical intervention that is a form of life support.

Now, if you want to argue that the legal definition of life support and the like should be changed, fine do that, but under current law unless the parents succeed in their attempt to shop around for an activist judge who doesn't bother to follow law and precedent, this phase of this discussion will be over in a week or so as her body finally catches up with what her mind did 15 years ago.

I keep hearing the opposite.
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J. J.
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« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2005, 02:11:17 AM »


If the parents conducted your "experiment", it would not be admissible in court under the standards the judges have set up.

Here's an experiment that would be admissible in court that Schiavo has refused to allow take place:  A PETS scan.  A PETS scan is a scan of the brain that will allow us to determine accurately what Terri Schiavo's brain function is.  Instead of doctors who haven't actually examined her brain and concluded on little or no actual evidence that she has no mental capacity, we'd actually have scientific data!  Of course, not one person on the kill Terri side, including you (Who linked to a site explaining knee reflexes when he couldn't find something on eye reflexes that supported his position) has suggested any medical examination, you just expect us to take your word for it, and any time we present evidence that contradicts you, you cover your eyes and ears and mutter somethng about 19 Judges and 600 Doctors and 300,000 state certified fortune tellers have said she won't make it.


The doctors can and would be looking for certain things.  Now, I was addressing the fact that reflex actions are not controlled by brian function.  Here are some sites that address eye reflex in coma cases, specifically:





Centres for eye movement control are adjacent to the brain stem areas responsible for arousal; thus, evaluation is a valuable guide to the presence and level of brain stem disease causing coma. Ocular pathways run from the mid brain to the pons, thus normal reflex eye movements imply that the pontomedullary junction to the level of the ocular motor nucleus in the mid brain is intact. In addition the oculomotor nerve is susceptible to compression in tentorial herniation.


http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/71/suppl_1/i13


Signs of vegetative state
Some of the characteristics of a vegetative state include:

The person looks like they're asleep
They can't wake up, talk or respond to commands
The eyes may open in response to stimuli
The person is able to move their body
Heart rate, blood pressure and respiration continue
The person can randomly laugh, cry or pull faces.
The brain stem is undamaged
A person in a persistent vegetative state has damage to the cerebral hemispheres - the areas of the brain that govern sophisticated functions like consciousness, self-awareness and personality. However, the brain stem is intact, so the person retains motor reflexes, sleep-wake cycles and the activity of their autonomic nervous system. This includes the regulation of many functions essential to life such as heart rate, respiration and blood pressure.



http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Coma_vegetative_state?open

In persistent vegetative state the individual loses the higher cerebral powers of the brain, but the functions of the brainstem, such as respiration (breathing) and circulation, remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli, but the patient does not speak or obey commands. Patients in a vegetative state may appear somewhat normal. They may occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh.

http://www.neuroskills.com/index.shtml?main=/tbi/coma.shtml

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/921394859.html

See also
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7213/841

These things occure in PVS cases.  So far there is no evidence that has been presented that she has any cognative function.

I don't feel that Mrs. Shiavo should die.  I feel that whatever she ever was died nearly fifteen years ago.  Keeping her alive is only a little bit more than abuse of a corpse.  It is a ghoulish exercise that only makes a mockery of who she really was.

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As for this, I do not see how my party affiliation has any bearing on the matter, though I point out Federal intervention is a violation of states rights.  I would suspect that jFRAUD, Popeepo, BRTD, and FreeDUMBburnout might disagree with your assessment.



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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #140 on: March 23, 2005, 02:14:44 AM »

Ironically feeding tubes were NOT considered life support 5-10 years ago in FL.
What changed that?  I honestly don't know much Florida law.
It was another right-to-die case that determined that particular issue about 10 years ago.  Before them, it was an undefined issue.  A similar ruling is effect in the UK but I don't know which side of the pond decided the issue first.
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J. J.
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« Reply #141 on: March 23, 2005, 02:18:34 AM »

Ironically feeding tubes were NOT considered life support 5-10 years ago in FL.
What changed that?  I honestly don't know much Florida law.
It was another right-to-die case that determined that particular issue about 10 years ago.  Before them, it was an undefined issue.  A similar ruling is effect in the UK but I don't know which side of the pond decided the issue first.

The determination was decided by the House of Lords in 1993, but the feeding tubes were not ordered removed until 1998.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #142 on: March 23, 2005, 03:20:26 AM »

Except that she is not on life support.
For the purpose of the law, gastric feeding tubes are classified as a medical intervention that is a form of life support.

Now, if you want to argue that the legal definition of life support and the like should be changed, fine do that, but under current law unless the parents succeed in their attempt to shop around for an activist judge who doesn't bother to follow law and precedent, this phase of this discussion will be over in a week or so as her body finally catches up with what her mind did 15 years ago.

The medical definition I found says that only those things that restore organ function.  Feeding tubes would not be included.

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/life_support.jsp


If the parents conducted your "experiment", it would not be admissible in court under the standards the judges have set up.

Here's an experiment that would be admissible in court that Schiavo has refused to allow take place:  A PETS scan.  A PETS scan is a scan of the brain that will allow us to determine accurately what Terri Schiavo's brain function is.  Instead of doctors who haven't actually examined her brain and concluded on little or no actual evidence that she has no mental capacity, we'd actually have scientific data!  Of course, not one person on the kill Terri side, including you (Who linked to a site explaining knee reflexes when he couldn't find something on eye reflexes that supported his position) has suggested any medical examination, you just expect us to take your word for it, and any time we present evidence that contradicts you, you cover your eyes and ears and mutter somethng about 19 Judges and 600 Doctors and 300,000 state certified fortune tellers have said she won't make it.


The doctors can and would be looking for certain things.  Now, I was addressing the fact that reflex actions are not controlled by brian function.  Here are some sites that address eye reflex in coma cases, specifically:



Centres for eye movement control are adjacent to the brain stem areas responsible for arousal; thus, evaluation is a valuable guide to the presence and level of brain stem disease causing coma. Ocular pathways run from the mid brain to the pons, thus normal reflex eye movements imply that the pontomedullary junction to the level of the ocular motor nucleus in the mid brain is intact. In addition the oculomotor nerve is susceptible to compression in tentorial herniation.

http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/71/suppl_1/i13


Signs of vegetative state
Some of the characteristics of a vegetative state include:

The person looks like they're asleep
They can't wake up, talk or respond to commands
The eyes may open in response to stimuli
The person is able to move their body
Heart rate, blood pressure and respiration continue
The person can randomly laugh, cry or pull faces.
The brain stem is undamaged
A person in a persistent vegetative state has damage to the cerebral hemispheres - the areas of the brain that govern sophisticated functions like consciousness, self-awareness and personality. However, the brain stem is intact, so the person retains motor reflexes, sleep-wake cycles and the activity of their autonomic nervous system. This includes the regulation of many functions essential to life such as heart rate, respiration and blood pressure.


http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Coma_vegetative_state?open

In persistent vegetative state the individual loses the higher cerebral powers of the brain, but the functions of the brainstem, such as respiration (breathing) and circulation, remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli, but the patient does not speak or obey commands. Patients in a vegetative state may appear somewhat normal. They may occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh.

http://www.neuroskills.com/index.shtml?main=/tbi/coma.shtml

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/921394859.html

See also
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7213/841

These things occure in PVS cases.  So far there is no evidence that has been presented that she has any cognative function.

I don't feel that Mrs. Shiavo should die.  I feel that whatever she ever was died nearly fifteen years ago.  Keeping her alive is only a little bit more than abuse of a corpse.  It is a ghoulish exercise that only makes a mockery of who she really was.

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As for this, I do not see how my party affiliation has any bearing on the matter, though I point out Federal intervention is a violation of states rights.  I would suspect that jFRAUD, Popeepo, BRTD, and FreeDUMBburnout might disagree with your assessment.

Stop pretending the medicine is open and shut.  She has not even received a full examination, as I said before, and it’s the husband’s camp that is preventing it.  Medical experts disagree with each other over her condition.

Neuropsychologist Dr. Alexander Gimon argued that her responses "are completely inconsistent with a diagnosis of vegetative state."

Neurologist Dr. William Hammesfahr, Terri "is alert and responsive to her environment. She responds to specific people best."  Dr. William Hammesfahr, who has aided people with chronic brain injuries, said: "There are many approaches that would help Terri Schiavo. I know, because I had the opportunity to personally examine her, her medical records, and her X-rays."

An affidavit from 17 other doctors shows that Terri is not in PVS.

http://www.terrisfight.org/press/030405medaff.html

Its not a violation of states rights if rights defined in the Federal Constitution are violated.  The right to life is itself a due process right, a substantive due process right, and a complaint that it has been threatened is alone enough for the Federal Courts to hear the case.

This last part is the stuff I’m talking about when I say you’re every Democrat’s favorite Republican.  You say you don’t think Schiavo should die, but then you leap to the defense of some hack judge who can’t even avoid committing contempt of Congress.
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J. J.
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« Reply #143 on: March 23, 2005, 08:45:34 AM »


Stop pretending the medicine is open and shut.  She has not even received a full examination, as I said before, and it’s the husband’s camp that is preventing it.  Medical experts disagree with each other over her condition.

Neuropsychologist Dr. Alexander Gimon argued that her responses "are completely inconsistent with a diagnosis of vegetative state."

Neurologist Dr. William Hammesfahr, Terri "is alert and responsive to her environment. She responds to specific people best."  Dr. William Hammesfahr, who has aided people with chronic brain injuries, said: "There are many approaches that would help Terri Schiavo. I know, because I had the opportunity to personally examine her, her medical records, and her X-rays."

An affidavit from 17 other doctors shows that Terri is not in PVS.

http://www.terrisfight.org/press/030405medaff.html

Its not a violation of states rights if rights defined in the Federal Constitution are violated.  The right to life is itself a due process right, a substantive due process right, and a complaint that it has been threatened is alone enough for the Federal Courts to hear the case.

This last part is the stuff I’m talking about when I say you’re every Democrat’s favorite Republican.  You say you don’t think Schiavo should die, but then you leap to the defense of some hack judge who can’t even avoid committing contempt of Congress.

I'm far from pretending that is "open and shut," but I do note that "evidence" presented so far that Mrs. Shaivo is cognative does not prove that.  Everything presented is consistant with a PVS.  The conclusion that it is is not merely supported by her current doctors, who are being paid by Mr. Shaivo, but by those independent doctors appointed by the court.  No, not "open and shut," but the preponderance of expert evidence is in that it is a PVS.

This is a single judge, but a series of judges.  The case was appealed, ultimately to the FL Supreme Court, and upheld.  Now, we are at a point where a Federal Judge has said that this does not violate due process and a panel of the Appeals Court saying the same thing.

You've made several interesting arguments:

1.  Mr. Shaivo is doing this solely for money for so that he can marry someone else.  False, as he could get more money, or end the relationship more quickly though other means.

2.  Mrs. Shaivo reactions are evidence that she isn't in a PVS.  False, as these are common in PVS cases.

3.  Mrs. Shaivo was deprived of due process.  False, as she went through an appeals process through the appeal process to the FL Supreme Court and now in Federal Courts.  The unanimity of the courts, to date, has been suprising.

You need evidence to support these cllaims, but it's not there.
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The Duke
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« Reply #144 on: March 23, 2005, 03:48:36 PM »

I haven't said he's doing it solely for the money, if you read the earlier part of the thread I argued against Wildcard on this very point.  The more the case has gone on, the more I do wonder about the money issue, but I have never argued he's doing it just for the money.  I do think the courts have repeatedly ruled that beneficiaries of insurance claims should not be legal guardians, and that Schiavo should be removed as legal guardian because of the insurance claim.

Terri Schiavo's behaviors do in fact suggest she is not in PVS, and you have chosen to not respond to the evidence peresented which includes expert medical opinions.  The case that she is in PVS is based on the idea that her cerebral cortex has been liquified.  As I have already shown, the cerebral cortex cannot be liquified if she follows the balloon, because the liquification of the cortex results in total blindness.  She could not see the balloon if her cortex was liquified.  Your defense against both me and cswelch is that her reaction does not display cognition, which does not even address the issue at hand.

I do belive she has been denied due process, and its not enough that x number of judges have reviewed the case.  The 14th Amendment has a substantive due process component, which includes the rights enumerated in the Constitution.  If rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights are violated without cause, than due process is violated.  These rights are life, liberty, and property.

Your pattern seems to be, ignore evidence, then claim no evidence was presented, and when you can't ignore the evidence you put forward desperate and contradictory arguments against them.
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migrendel
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« Reply #145 on: March 23, 2005, 04:33:22 PM »

I must say, this particular Punch and Judy show would be very amusing in its own ridiculousness if it were not for the things at stake.

The issue of whether or not Ms. Schiavo can have her tube withdrawn is not an unresolved controversy. That issue was resolved in the case of Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Department of Public Health. Nor is the issue of the primacy of her spouse over her parents one that needs attention. It has been established at common law for centuries. The only remaining issue is whether her consent is adequate to withdraw the tube. That matter is clearly within the jurisdiction of state court, and it appalls me that the Congress sees fit to involve itself in such a matter of familial privacy and personal liberty.
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« Reply #146 on: March 23, 2005, 04:43:18 PM »

Welcome back midgrendell.  I think we can all agree this congress is an appalling thing.
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J. J.
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« Reply #147 on: March 23, 2005, 05:04:24 PM »

I haven't said he's doing it solely for the money, if you read the earlier part of the thread I argued against Wildcard on this very point.  The more the case has gone on, the more I do wonder about the money issue, but I have never argued he's doing it just for the money.  I do think the courts have repeatedly ruled that beneficiaries of insurance claims should not be legal guardians, and that Schiavo should be removed as legal guardian because of the insurance claim.

Totally false, because I am both sole heir and beneficiary of someone I have guardianship over.

Here the reference you made, yesterday regarding Mr. Shaivo's financial situation:

It is based on his either not having her best interest at heart and/or being incapable of carrying out his role as guardian.  Since he has at various ponts denied Terri basic medical care (At one point she contrcted a urinary tract infection, for example, and he overrode doctor's wishes to use antibiotics.  It was only by court order that she was finally allowed basic antibiotics) has a financial conflict of interest (A $1 million life insurance policy) and an extramarital lover.  The parents have never demonstrated gross incompetence, nor do they seem to have conflicts of interest.

Now, if he wished the money, there are quicker and cheaper methods of getting it.

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False again from the descriptions on the sites cited.  The possibility also exists that Mrs. Shiavo may not wish to live in a state of profound mental disability, so even though there is no real evidence against a PVS, it might not be necessary to show the disability is that great to trigger removal.  My own living will actually uses the term "irreversible brain damage or brain disease with no realistic hope of significant recovery," which would include this situation.  Assuming, as the courts have, that Mrs. Shiavo did not want to exist in this type of condition, whether or not it is PVS or a lesser condition, really makes no difference.

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The courts, the Florida trial court, Appeals Court, and Supreme Court, and now the Federal District and Appeals Courts, have looked at the due process arguments and determined that she did; under our system of government, it is their call.  They are the ones that get to make the 14th Amendment call, and they have, repeatedly.

You so far have ignored the descriptions of the medical conditions and the role of the courts in making your arguments.  You have also ignored your own previous posts.
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migrendel
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« Reply #148 on: March 23, 2005, 05:07:40 PM »

One would be hard-pressed to deny that Ms. Schiavo had her day in court. Actually, she had quite a few of them, all reaching the same obvious conclusion.
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J.R. Brown
Rutzay
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« Reply #149 on: March 23, 2005, 05:11:00 PM »

I think this whole debate is horrendous. It should be up to her mother and father, who conceived her, not her husband and certainly not the United States Government on what should be done pertaining to the situation she's in rights now. I can't believe the government is deciding who should live and die now. What's next?
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