Today the Far-Right "academics/fraternities" ball takes place in Vienna

[MaxQue]

Well, no surprise it happens when the police is obviously favoring the neo-fascists.

Huh?

The police is putting a perimeter to protect them, even from journalists!

Well, in many respects the journalists are worse than the protestors when it comes to an event like this.

But neither the protesters or the journalists are the worst. Those racist, nationalists and fascists in the middle, protected by an allied police force are the worse.

But they didn't hijack the Hofburg; they've paid their fees to use the palace as a venue for a ball. They're not the ones trying to break the law in cold blood. You're deluded and your argument is a farce.

Their presence is causing riots, therefore the ball is a threat to the public safety.

And you are the one calling them fascists?

Look what the far-right did in the 40's. And if they get the chance, they'll do it again. After fundamentalism religion (like the Muslim extremists terrorists), the far-right is the 2nd biggest threat to world safety, liberty and democracy.

[dead0man]

And to prove it, the far left acts like douchebags.  Makes perfect sense!

[CatoMinor]

Well, no surprise it happens when the police is obviously favoring the neo-fascists.

Huh?

The police is putting a perimeter to protect them, even from journalists!

Well, in many respects the journalists are worse than the protestors when it comes to an event like this.

But neither the protesters or the journalists are the worst. Those racist, nationalists and fascists in the middle, protected by an allied police force are the worse.

But they didn't hijack the Hofburg; they've paid their fees to use the palace as a venue for a ball. They're not the ones trying to break the law in cold blood. You're deluded and your argument is a farce.

Their presence is causing riots, therefore the ball is a threat to the public safety.

And you are the one calling them fascists?

Look what the far-right did in the 40's. And if they get the chance, they'll do it again. After fundamentalism religion (like the Muslim extremists terrorists), the far-right is the 2nd biggest threat to world safety, liberty and democracy.

I don't know who else was invited to the venue, but the FPÖ isn't exactly neo-nazi.

[Associate Justice PiT]

And to prove it, the far left acts like douchebags.  Makes perfect sense!

     Yeah, the actions of the far-left here are inexcusable. If they are going to be perpetrating violent crimes when people they don't like are in town, then they are right at the top of threats to world safety, liberty, and democracy as well.

[DC Al Fine]

And to prove it, the far left acts like douchebags.  Makes perfect sense!

     Yeah, the actions of the far-left here are inexcusable. If they are going to be perpetrating violent crimes when people they don't like are in town, then they are right at the top of threats to world safety, liberty, and democracy as well.

Disrupting political opponents' events? Gee what Weimar era political party does that remind you of?

[MaxQue]

And to prove it, the far left acts like douchebags.  Makes perfect sense!

     Yeah, the actions of the far-left here are inexcusable. If they are going to be perpetrating violent crimes when people they don't like are in town, then they are right at the top of threats to world safety, liberty, and democracy as well.

The far-left isn't good either, but I see them as less dangerous, as they are less powerful. A bunch of angsty and delusionnal young people, with a poor grasp at reality isn't really dangerous. Rioting is terrible and shound be prosecuted, but they can't do more damages than that. They are much on the fringe than the far-right. Both are annoying and potentially dangerous, but the far-right is much more likely to seize power currently.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

And to prove it, the far left acts like douchebags.  Makes perfect sense!

     Yeah, the actions of the far-left here are inexcusable. If they are going to be perpetrating violent crimes when people they don't like are in town, then they are right at the top of threats to world safety, liberty, and democracy as well.

Disrupting political opponents' events? Gee what Weimar era political party does that remind you of?

The KPD?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

And to prove it, the far left acts like douchebags.  Makes perfect sense!

     Yeah, the actions of the far-left here are inexcusable. If they are going to be perpetrating violent crimes when people they don't like are in town, then they are right at the top of threats to world safety, liberty, and democracy as well.

The far-left isn't good either, but I see them as less dangerous, as they are less powerful. A bunch of angsty and delusionnal young people, with a poor grasp at reality isn't really dangerous. Rioting is terrible and shound be prosecuted, but they can't do more damages than that. They are much on the fringe than the far-right. Both are annoying and potentially dangerous, but the far-right is much more likely to seize power currently.

The "far right" you fear is more of an invention of your mind. All your counterpoints fail to address the fact that you are subjecting personal opinion for fact.

[Sol]

I don't know about that- far-right nationalists are certainly more powerful than the left in most of Europe, for sure. Austria has the FPÖ, Hungary has Fidesz (and Jobbik), Greece had Golden Shower, France has the Front Nationale, etc. All of those are (or were, for GD) quite prominent politically, and several could easily form government.

[Franknburger]

I actually agree with you that it's a shame that a ball like this is still able to be held in Vienna.

But on the other hand the government parties are unable to do much against it: The Hofburg event agency is a private company and if the Far-Right fraternities pay them well for holding this event (which they probably do, considering the size of it), the SPÖ and ÖVP can only appeal to the event agency to scrap it. But not forbid it.

Well, in fact, a number of German cities have over the last years prohibited neo-Nazi events because they were constituting a danger to public security by attracting protest. Courts have confirmed such decisions. Whether it's a private venue or not doesn't matter, they use public space to get there.

What, however, isn't clear to me (and you might help here, Tender), whether this is actually a neo-Nazi event. Fraternities ("Burschenschaften") are student organisations. They have the image of being right-wing in Germany, and several, but most likely not all of them, probably are. But right-wing is not neo-fascist. The photos suggest a traditional student ball, with politics playing a minor role, if at all. In that case, the protest would be inappropriate, and also counterproductive.

[CatoMinor]

Are the terms fascist and neo-nazi being thrown around here anywhere near accurate or are the far leftists just doing as they tend to do so often, labeling anything not socialist as fascist? This is a legitimate question because from the admittedly little I know of Austrian parties, immigration aside, comparing the FPO to the fascists of the 30's and 40's seems completely idiotic. Supporting individual freedom just does not seem very hitleresque, but that is just me.

[MaxQue]

Supporting individual freedom just does not seem very hitleresque, but that is just me.

FPO doesn't support individual freedom at all. They want to impose their values on everyone and on economy, they are well far to the left of the Democrat Party, so, I'm pretty sure you don't agree with them on that neither.

A few decades ago, FPO was indeed a classical liberal party, but that wing of the party lost control and party is controlled since then by the nationalist wing, which is much more shady and dubious. Many of the liberals of the 80's left, many to NEOS or OVP (and BZO before it collasped), I would suspect.

[Franzl]

I'm with MaxQue on his analysis of the nature of the FPÖ. Even if they're not yet openly demanding anything similar to national socialism...if you listen to the people in charge, it's not a huge stretch to recognize certain similarities.

Despite that, it was correct to go after violent protestors, whether or not you have any understanding for them.

[ingemann]

I'm with MaxQue on his analysis of the nature of the FPÖ. Even if they're not yet openly demanding anything similar to national socialism...if you listen to the people in charge, it's not a huge stretch to recognize certain similarities.

Yes and some people on the right see the Green as Commufascist who are only waiting for the moment to establish the Dictator of the Proletariat, me... I prefer to listen what people say and how they act, and while I must say I don't like what I see in FPÖ, I don't really think tht comparing them to the Nazi are fair to them, plus it diminish the Nazi's evil.

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Agree.

[Tender Branson]

I actually agree with you that it's a shame that a ball like this is still able to be held in Vienna.

But on the other hand the government parties are unable to do much against it: The Hofburg event agency is a private company and if the Far-Right fraternities pay them well for holding this event (which they probably do, considering the size of it), the SPÖ and ÖVP can only appeal to the event agency to scrap it. But not forbid it.

Well, in fact, a number of German cities have over the last years prohibited neo-Nazi events because they were constituting a danger to public security by attracting protest. Courts have confirmed such decisions. Whether it's a private venue or not doesn't matter, they use public space to get there.

What, however, isn't clear to me (and you might help here, Tender), whether this is actually a neo-Nazi event. Fraternities ("Burschenschaften") are student organisations. They have the image of being right-wing in Germany, and several, but most likely not all of them, probably are. But right-wing is not neo-fascist. The photos suggest a traditional student ball, with politics playing a minor role, if at all. In that case, the protest would be inappropriate, and also counterproductive.

I don't know much about the right-wing fraternities, but those here are likely more extreme than the ones in Germany (the opposite is the case in the far-left circles -> see protesting activists).

But they do a good job in veiling their intentions and they are also hightly secretive, so you cannot tell if they are really Neo-Nazi, or just extreme right-wing. But most of them probably are Neo-Nazi by the definition.

A funny thing: The Hofburg event agency didn't even list the fraternities ball on their website. There was only a ball mentioned on Thursday and on Saturday, with "Friday" being blank on their website.

To me it seems they are probably ashamed that they hosted them, but even more likely: They just want to avoid it and do it just for the money ...

When it comes to cities banning Neo-Nazi meetings, yes, they can do it. But then we are back to the question if the fraternities and the FPÖ are "Neo-Nazi" or not ...

But the Innsbruck city council recently banned a right-wing fraternity meeting within city limits:

http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/oesterreich/1553495/Wie-man-in-Innsbruck-Haltung-zeigte

Don't know enough if this would be possible in Vienna too (Red-Green city government !!!) and if it would go to court and how the courts would rule on this ...

Also, it would be a matter of free speech, as long as the right-wing fraternities do not act against the "Verbotsgesetz", for example by giving anti-semitic speeches during their balls.

But, it's still a shame that the Vienna city government didn't at least try to ban the Hofburg ball and then waited to see what came out of it.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Because subjecting freedom of speech and assembly in the name of security is hardly a dangerous precedent to set considering these countries have a such a long history of freedom and liberty, oh wait...

As I recall, the rise of fascism was entirely the result of the desire by both the upper, middle and even some working class people to attain security in the face of revolutionary violence and socialist upheaval both real and imagined, paid for with the price of sacrificing individual freedom and liberty as well as whatever little democratic Government existed at the time in those places in exchange.

The whole purpose of sacrificing liberty, to the extent that it is necessary, is to allow a government to exist so that security can be achieved. But for what purpose is that security? Is it just for its own sake or is it so that individuals can better exercise their freedom? The said security exists to maximize the freedom of as many people as possible. Secondly, to avoid discrimination, equality before the law dictates that all are treated the same, regardless of their beliefs. If someone's freedom is to be impinged in this scenario, it should be the ones seeking to deny it from others.

It is not always the what that matters, but the how as well. Hitler preached hate and death, but he would never have been able to make it happen without the means by which he ascended to power and then held it.

[Tender Branson]

Wow !

New turn of events:

Not the FPÖ gets the big blame today, but ... the Greens !

Why ?

It turned out that the "Young Greens" (the youth-wing of the Green Party) set up the site www.nowkr.at as a platform for the organisations that wanted to protest the right-wing ball.

It also turned out that on this site the organisations recruited the German "black block" activists that turned the peaceful demonstrations into chaos and damaged the inner-city.

The website also featured the slogan "YOU CAN HAVE OUR HATE !", that the black block used in their demos:



The Young Greens say they only registered the domain, but the demo groups put in their own info stuff.

Austrian Green leader Eva Glawischnig called the violent riots of the black block a "disaster" and urged the Young Greens to renounce all forms of violence and a written guarantee that in the future no outside groups are allowed to post on the websites of the Young Greens.

The YG have said they won't sign anything, especially not today when the Holocaust remembrance day takes place. They also said that today it looks pretty crazy to attack anti-fascist measures.

The YG also said: "Glawischnig didn't talk to us for the last 4 years, that her communication skills are bad and it reminds them of what other parties usually do."

Glawischnig responded: "Accecpt my conditions, or you'll get fired !"

It could not have been better for the FPÖ ...

http://derstandard.at/1389858370565/Glawischnig-droht-jungen-Gruenen-mir-Rausschmiss

[Yeahsayyeah]

This all looks more like folklore than the severe civil war Austria is talking about...

[Tender Branson]

This all looks more like folklore than the severe civil war Austria is talking about...

Civil war ?

No.

I just make it look like one with my Mega-thread here ...

[Yeahsayyeah]

Ok. This makes sense. But by doing this you supporting the clichè Americans have of the European far left, of course. ;-)

According to a friend who lived in Austria for several years, Vienna's police president is also getting a lot of the blame. Is this the case or is it just a facebook meme?

[Tender Branson]

Ok. This makes sense. But by doing this you supporting the clichè Americans have of the European far left, of course. ;-)

According to a friend who lived in Austria for several years, Vienna's police president is also getting a lot of the blame. Is this the case or is it just a facebook meme?

Indeed, but mostly from the Left: Pürstl said in a recent ORF discussion that the police will try to get the names from (possible violent) protestors who were transported to hospitals by the Red Cross from the clinics they were transported to. Plus that the police will use the footage of surveillance cams in the inner-city to get the Black Block protestors that trashed the inner-city.

Even though this is within the law, the Left attacked him for "breaking data privacy".

Additionally, the Left attacked him for "being too brutal on the demonstrators" during the protests.

Because of this, the Left is now spreading rumours that police-chief Pürstl is a member of a Far-Right fraternity ...

You can watch the whole ORF discussion here:

http://tvthek.orf.at/program/Im-Zentrum/6907623/IM-ZENTRUM-Krawall-um-den-Ball-Polizei-Proteste-Provokation/7399954

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

How dare the chief of police uphold law and order?

[MaxQue]

How dare the chief of police uphold law and order?

The issue is than he looks like he is wanting to protect the far-right fraternities, not unholding the law and order.

[Hifly]

How dare the chief of police uphold law and order?

The issue is than he looks like he is wanting to protect the far-right fraternities, not unholding the law and order.

How is he not upholding law and order?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

How is the word "fraternity" being used in this context?