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Author Topic: Should Gore have fought for Florida, a la Ukraine?  (Read 9762 times)
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« on: March 19, 2005, 12:49:59 am »
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What would have happened, that, say, Democrats dredge up all those cheating allegations, organize protests like Yusckenko did and eventualy had the Supreme Court order a revote in Florida? Could that have happened?


My guess: no since 2000 was nowhere near as divisive as the Ukraine election.
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2005, 05:39:42 am »
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No.

The Gore and Bush campaigns should have gotten together and agreed to a state-wide recount, and agreed in advance on all the standards for vote counting.  It should have had bipartisan supervision, and each campaign should have agreed in advance to abide by the results without legal challenges.

Gore was being the typical Democrat, acting like a little girl.  It is the party of women, after all, and Gore's behavior reflected that, whatever he may actually have between his legs.  He refused to agree to accept any results in advance that he didn't like, and then he asked for recounts only in the 4 most heavily Democratic counties.  And to top it all off, he put the son of a well-known vote-stealer as the public spokesman for his recount effort.  When he didn't get the results he wanted, he ran to the courts.

And all the garbage about blacks not being allowed to vote was just that - self-serving garbage being peddled by revolting rejects like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.  Gore's alignment with them is to his eternal discredit.  As far as the "conspiratorial" Palm Beach butterfly ballot goes, it was designed by a partisan Democrat.  Need I say more?

The whole Florida mess was avoidable, but it would have required Gore to act like a man.  I guess that was asking too much.  Better to whine and cry and act like a little girl.

What amazed me is that I never heard of a Republican coming forward stating that his/her vote wasn't counted, or that he/she was confused into voting incorrectly.  How could that be?  Could the Republicans have it rigged so well that all mistakes and confusion favored them?  I guess the Republicans have such a strong presence in inner-city black areas that they were able to prevent blacks from voting there in large numbers.  Or maybe only Democrats aren't smart enough to figure out how to mark a ballot correctly?  I wish I had the answer.

Maybe it's just that the Republican mentality is less victim-oriented.  I remember watching all these annoying Democrats with grating New York accents complain about what a huge conspiracy it was that they voted wrong in Palm Beach County.  How did they know they voted wrong, when they weren't able to see their ballot again after supposedly checking it and turning it in?  They figured out after the fact, without seeing the ballot, that they had been victimized by a ballot that they weren't smart enough to figure out.  That's a big difference right there between a Democrat and a Republican.  A Republican would have enough pride not to announce his utter stupidity on national TV, and try to blame it on a big conspiracy, which of course it turns out was "engineered" by the Democrats, since they engineered the Palm Beach County ballot.  A Republican who knew he had failed to mark his ballot correctly would keep his mouth shut, slink home, and keep his sorrow over the results private.  He wouldn't announce his mistake on national TV.
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2005, 06:20:51 am »
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No.

The Gore and Bush campaigns should have gotten together and agreed to a state-wide recount, and agreed in advance on all the standards for vote counting.  It should have had bipartisan supervision, and each campaign should have agreed in advance to abide by the results without legal challenges.

Gore was being the typical Democrat, acting like a little girl.  It is the party of women, after all, and Gore's behavior reflected that, whatever he may actually have between his legs.  He refused to agree to accept any results in advance that he didn't like, and then he asked for recounts only in the 4 most heavily Democratic counties.  And to top it all off, he put the son of a well-known vote-stealer as the public spokesman for his recount effort.  When he didn't get the results he wanted, he ran to the courts.

And all the garbage about blacks not being allowed to vote was just that - self-serving garbage being peddled by revolting rejects like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.  Gore's alignment with them is to his eternal discredit.  As far as the "conspiratorial" Palm Beach butterfly ballot goes, it was designed by a partisan Democrat.  Need I say more?

The whole Florida mess was avoidable, but it would have required Gore to act like a man.  I guess that was asking too much.  Better to whine and cry and act like a little girl.

What amazed me is that I never heard of a Republican coming forward stating that his/her vote wasn't counted, or that he/she was confused into voting incorrectly.  How could that be?  Could the Republicans have it rigged so well that all mistakes and confusion favored them?  I guess the Republicans have such a strong presence in inner-city black areas that they were able to prevent blacks from voting there in large numbers.  Or maybe only Democrats aren't smart enough to figure out how to mark a ballot correctly?  I wish I had the answer.

Maybe it's just that the Republican mentality is less victim-oriented.  I remember watching all these annoying Democrats with grating New York accents complain about what a huge conspiracy it was that they voted wrong in Palm Beach County.  How did they know they voted wrong, when they weren't able to see their ballot again after supposedly checking it and turning it in?  They figured out after the fact, without seeing the ballot, that they had been victimized by a ballot that they weren't smart enough to figure out.  That's a big difference right there between a Democrat and a Republican.  A Republican would have enough pride not to announce his utter stupidity on national TV, and try to blame it on a big conspiracy, which of course it turns out was "engineered" by the Democrats, since they engineered the Palm Beach County ballot.  A Republican who knew he had failed to mark his ballot correctly would keep his mouth shut, slink home, and keep his sorrow over the results private.  He wouldn't announce his mistake on national TV.

What a load of sexism and racism crap.
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2005, 06:52:23 am »
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No.

The Gore and Bush campaigns should have gotten together and agreed to a state-wide recount, and agreed in advance on all the standards for vote counting.  It should have had bipartisan supervision, and each campaign should have agreed in advance to abide by the results without legal challenges.

Gore was being the typical Democrat, acting like a little girl.  It is the party of women, after all, and Gore's behavior reflected that, whatever he may actually have between his legs.  He refused to agree to accept any results in advance that he didn't like, and then he asked for recounts only in the 4 most heavily Democratic counties.  And to top it all off, he put the son of a well-known vote-stealer as the public spokesman for his recount effort.  When he didn't get the results he wanted, he ran to the courts.

And all the garbage about blacks not being allowed to vote was just that - self-serving garbage being peddled by revolting rejects like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.  Gore's alignment with them is to his eternal discredit.  As far as the "conspiratorial" Palm Beach butterfly ballot goes, it was designed by a partisan Democrat.  Need I say more?

The whole Florida mess was avoidable, but it would have required Gore to act like a man.  I guess that was asking too much.  Better to whine and cry and act like a little girl.

What amazed me is that I never heard of a Republican coming forward stating that his/her vote wasn't counted, or that he/she was confused into voting incorrectly.  How could that be?  Could the Republicans have it rigged so well that all mistakes and confusion favored them?  I guess the Republicans have such a strong presence in inner-city black areas that they were able to prevent blacks from voting there in large numbers.  Or maybe only Democrats aren't smart enough to figure out how to mark a ballot correctly?  I wish I had the answer.

Maybe it's just that the Republican mentality is less victim-oriented.  I remember watching all these annoying Democrats with grating New York accents complain about what a huge conspiracy it was that they voted wrong in Palm Beach County.  How did they know they voted wrong, when they weren't able to see their ballot again after supposedly checking it and turning it in?  They figured out after the fact, without seeing the ballot, that they had been victimized by a ballot that they weren't smart enough to figure out.  That's a big difference right there between a Democrat and a Republican.  A Republican would have enough pride not to announce his utter stupidity on national TV, and try to blame it on a big conspiracy, which of course it turns out was "engineered" by the Democrats, since they engineered the Palm Beach County ballot.  A Republican who knew he had failed to mark his ballot correctly would keep his mouth shut, slink home, and keep his sorrow over the results private.  He wouldn't announce his mistake on national TV.

What a load of sexism and racism crap.

You're just reading from the Democratic hymnal.

It's racist to accuse black agitators of lying when they falsely claim large numbers of blacks were "disenfranchised?"  Oh, OK, I'm so so sorry.  I love Al and Jesse and as a form of contrition, I will contribute to the Rainbow Coalition, so Jackson can pay off the mother of his bastard child, that he conceived while "counseling" Bill Clinton on his Monica Lewinsky infidelity.

And accusing someone of acting like a "little girl" is common slang, not sexist.  In retrospect, the only mistake I made is in saying that the Democrats are the party of women, rather than saying they're the party of disaffected women with a sense of entitlement and victimization (aka feminists).

Get a grip.  Everybody who doesn't agree with you isn't a racist or a sexist, and I don't fear being called those things.  I think every man and every woman has a certain bias toward the thinking exhibited by their own sex; it's just that people like you believe only women should be allowed to express it.  And most everybody is racist to a degree.  Both sexism and racism are not either-or things, but a matter of kind and degree.  It's a typical liberal tactic to throw those labels at anybody who doesn't agree with you.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 07:52:40 am by dazzleman »Logged
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2005, 07:01:07 am »
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I don't see how Gore's fighting on would've changed the result, as the fix was in at the Supreme Court.

However it would've been the right thing to do,and would've served to further discredit Bush.  Most of all it would have been a more honorable alternative to Gore's craven and disappointing concession.  Imagine a feiry speech decrying Bush's theft instead of that concession!
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2005, 01:43:24 am »
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He did, and his attempt to steal the election failed, much like in Ukraine.
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2005, 12:49:20 pm »
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It's important to remember that Bush was strongly opposed to a full statewide manual count. Republicans were arguing that it would be too expensive and too arbitrary. Ultimately the Supreme Court ruled against a full statewide manual count, IIRC.

I definitely agree that there should have been one, but it's wrong to put all the blame on Gore. Both sides were willing to do whatever it took to win at that point. That doesn't excuse anyone's behavior or make it right, but it's the facts and the reality of the way politics works.
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2005, 06:51:05 pm »
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I don't see how Gore's fighting on would've changed the result, as the fix was in at the Supreme Court.


Maybe if the Democrats wouldn't have been idiots who nominated Mondale and Dukakis they could have got more liberals in the SCOTUS. Gore lost there because Republicans nominated winners (ala Reagan) and the Democrats fooled around and nominated losers.
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2005, 11:14:04 pm »
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It's important to remember that Bush was strongly opposed to a full statewide manual count. Republicans were arguing that it would be too expensive and too arbitrary. Ultimately the Supreme Court ruled against a full statewide manual count, IIRC.

I definitely agree that there should have been one, but it's wrong to put all the blame on Gore. Both sides were willing to do whatever it took to win at that point. That doesn't excuse anyone's behavior or make it right, but it's the facts and the reality of the way politics works.

Gore didn't ask for a statewide recount, at least at the beginning.  He ask for recounts in areas he thought he would do well in, but it turned out that he lost votes in those.  I suspect that his real intent, later was to delay the count and say, "Well, Florida waited too long to cast its votes, so I win."
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2005, 12:54:40 am »
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what? you mean have Bush poisoned?
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2005, 11:53:29 am »
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It would have been interesting had Gore stuck to his guns and blamed Bush for stealing the election.

But then it could have hurt the dems even more as fox would have portrayed them as cry babies.
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2005, 03:06:20 pm »
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No.
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2005, 03:16:52 pm »
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No.

In Ukraine, they had an abusive government who was obviously corrupt and had obviously stolen the election with a clear intent of fraud against a pro-Democracy revolution.

In the U.S., we had Democrats versus Republicans.

No election in the U.S. is comparable to that in Ukraine.
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2005, 04:02:05 pm »
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The mistake Gore made was challenging results and asking for hand recounts in only 4 counties, all of which were favorable to him. 

If instead, he would have asked for an entire state-wide hand recount, Bush would have had to go along with that, since to appear otherwise would have been politically as well as practically foolish.

But with the hand he played, it gave Bush the opportunity to play the hand that the certification the Florida SOS made was the only legal one under the law as stated by the Florida legislature.

Gore's selective recount request could therefore be negated by the successful argument on the Bush side that his selective recounts violated the rest of the Florida voters' right to "equal protection under the law" as stated in the 14th Amendment.

That's how it was presented to the Supreme Court of the US and that's the basic rationale (though it gets a little more complicated than that under the surface) by which they overruled the Florida Supreme Court and declared the election over with.

Nonetheless, when the NY Times and the Miami Herald did their recounts, they showed that Bush would have won under the Gore standards or under the statewide recount anyways.

My advice for Democrats is to get off this issue.  It does not help now, it didn't help then and it won't help in the future.

Gore made a fundamental strategical error in his recount fight and it really doesn't matter because he would have lost anyway.
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2005, 08:32:58 pm »
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The mistake Gore made was challenging results and asking for hand recounts in only 4 counties, all of which were favorable to him. 

If instead, he would have asked for an entire state-wide hand recount, Bush would have had to go along with that, since to appear otherwise would have been politically as well as practically foolish.


Best analysis yet!

Just for the record, I would have supported a statewide recount initially.  You'll note that I did in Ohio in 2004.

Gore made a blunder in not asking to "count all the votes" in beginning.
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2005, 05:47:23 am »
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I thought at the time and still think that they should have rerun the election across the state, failing that I agree with dazzelman, the Gore and Bush campaigns should have agreed to a state-wide recount of all votes in all counties… unfortunately the Gore team for some bizarre reason would only allow recounts in selective states while Bush’s team would do anything to prevent the impression that Bush was not “the winner” and Gore “the sore loser”… indeed had Florida not been called on the night, the whole dynamic would have been different, the story would have been “too close to call” with Gore as the popular vote winner, rather than “Bush may not have won”… if you see what I mean, that really where Gore’s hopes began to fade
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2005, 02:31:30 pm »
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Florida is in two time zones.

When most of the networks called Florida for Gore early in the evening, Florida voters in the panhandle were still casting ballots, and were voting heavily for Bush.

This early call of Florida for Gore likely cost Bush thousands ov votes in the panhandle as many of these people gave up waiting in line and left because they were led to believe the race in Florida was already over.

Who knows, as well, how many thousands, or hundreds of thousands of votes this early call of Florida for Gore cost Bush in the western part of the country, because people knew Bush needed Florida to win.  Likely, thousands of Bush voters gave up waiting in line and went home as well.

After the final count did not go Gore's way, he went trolling for votes in only favorable Democratic counties.

Every recount confirmed Bush's win.  As has been pointed out, even counts taken by the press confirmed Bush's win.

In the final analysis, the votes simply were not there for Gore to win Florida.
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2005, 09:09:35 pm »
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Gore was being the typical Democrat, acting like a little girl.  It is the party of women, after all,
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2005, 01:29:07 am »
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YES!!
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2005, 05:03:24 am »
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Florida is in two time zones.

When most of the networks called Florida for Gore early in the evening, Florida voters in the panhandle were still casting ballots, and were voting heavily for Bush.

This early call of Florida for Gore likely cost Bush thousands ov votes in the panhandle as many of these people gave up waiting in line and left because they were led to believe the race in Florida was already over.

Who knows, as well, how many thousands, or hundreds of thousands of votes this early call of Florida for Gore cost Bush in the western part of the country, because people knew Bush needed Florida to win.  Likely, thousands of Bush voters gave up waiting in line and went home as well.

After the final count did not go Gore's way, he went trolling for votes in only favorable Democratic counties.

Every recount confirmed Bush's win.  As has been pointed out, even counts taken by the press confirmed Bush's win.

In the final analysis, the votes simply were not there for Gore to win Florida.

Hundreds of thousands of votes? What planet are you on? Florida was called 10 minutes before voting stopped in the least populated part of the state. That may have cost Gore some votes to. The net effect was probably only a couple of dozen votes lost to Bush. The butterfly ballot, scrub list, illegal absentee ballots, and numerous other things by themselves were greater than the the resuliting difference between Bush and Gore. This wasn't.
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2005, 12:15:33 am »
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Yes
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2005, 02:48:10 am »
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What would have happened, that, say, Democrats dredge up all those cheating allegations, organize protests like Yusckenko did and eventualy had the Supreme Court order a revote in Florida? Could that have happened?


My guess: no since 2000 was nowhere near as divisive as the Ukraine election.

could it have happened? no. but it would have likely sparked a civil war
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2005, 02:55:15 pm »
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Yes...if he truly, deep down believed it was stolen.  The fact the Gore didn't fight for it even harder leads me to believe he either a) felt the result was just/there was not enough evidence to prove it otherwise, or b) he still had future political ambitions.
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2005, 04:05:56 pm »
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its simple IMHO - Clinton said he wouldent support Gore cause wifey wanted to run in 08 and if Billy had supported Al, her credibility would take a hit
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2005, 01:07:41 pm »
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What happened in the Ukraine couldn't happen in any western country because our people are generally too complacent and apathetic to appreciate that our rights are hard won and that democracy is something we should never take for granted. However, for a culture which had lived under an autocracy for almost a century (eg. Ukraine) it's an entirely different matter; most eastern Europeans understand how fragile their democratic rights are and are therefore more likely to fight for them.
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