SENATE BILL: Plebiscite Clause Removal Amendment (Sent to the Regions)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor: TyriontheImperialist

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The sponsor has 24 hours to advocate for this bill.


I am going to go ahead and request UC since this seems like an up or down issue and we have a lot of bills to get through.

I ask unanimous consent to waive cloture and the minimum debate time to proceed immediatetly to a final vote, Senators have 24 hours to object.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm going to object to UC at this point, since I'd like to a chance to see and consider the sponsor's reasoning. It may be possible to modify this without getting rid of the plebiscite completely.

A plebsicite implies unanimity, correct?

[tmthforu94]

I'm going to object to UC at this point, since I'd like to a chance to see and consider the sponsor's reasoning. It may be possible to modify this without getting rid of the plebiscite completely.

A plebsicite implies unanimity, correct?

That is my thought as well, though it's probably open to interpretation.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well it was worth a try, regardless.

[President Tyrion]

Heh, I would have been fine with UC.

First off, I do not interpret a plebiscite to imply unanimity. I don't really know where y'all got that idea from, because I have literally never heard it, and my preliminary research yields no implication of unanimity concerning plebiscites. So, essentially, a simple majority vote in one state could for all intents and purposes block its motion from one region to another.

This is a nice function to have in any country where the population is >150. In Atlasia, however, it's functionally obtrusive. I, for example, being the only resident of New Mexico, could block moving to another region "for funsies." Note that the interpretation of the term plebiscite requiring unanimity is moot in such a case, since I am the majority and the entirety of the citizenry.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So if we are to be having amendments, where are they?

[tmthforu94]

As silly as it may seem for a couple of individuals to yield such power, I think it is appropriate when you consider they are the only ones being affected by the change.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So if we are to be having amendments, where are they?

The more I consider it, the less I am interested now in an amendment.  On the one side is state self-determination, on the other is pragmatism in regional boundary reform, and while I'm torn between the two, I don't see a solution.  I was thinking of a few things like requiring long-term residency and/or a quorum, but that doesn't really satisfy either principle, much less both. 

If other Senators want to move forward with UC now that the bill has been on the floor for a full day, I won't object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

With the objection removed, cloture and minimum debate has been waived. I can proceed with a final vote if such is desired.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

With the objection removed, cloture and minimum debate has been waived. I can proceed with a final vote if such is desired.

I actually just meant I wouldn't object again if the UC were reintroduced, but whatever.  I usually don't like proceeding with a vote on a constitutional amendment with only a day of debate, but since it's just removing a clause and not adding new language, I don't really have a problem with it.   However, I will probably be voting nay.

[Talleyrand]

"State registration" in this game is only a formality and has no measurable impact/effect on gameplay. However, due to this section of the constitution, if there were to be some change in regional boundaries, we'd see people switch state to oppose the change on plebiscite and we'd see mass chaos, etc. I'm fine with getting rid of it, although I'm sure the "Regional rights!!!!1111" people will raise some frivolous objection.

[President Tyrion]

As silly as it may seem for a couple of individuals to yield such power, I think it is appropriate when you consider they are the only ones being affected by the change.

Other than everyone else in the region, who presumably voted in favor of the plan. It's only a dogmatic worship of one's arbitrary virtual fiefdom to think that there's good reason to allow one person to essentially gut a democratic process.

I'm ready to proceed with a final vote.

[tmthforu94]

"State registration" in this game is only a formality and has no measurable impact/effect on gameplay. However, due to this section of the constitution, if there were to be some change in regional boundaries, we'd see people switch state to oppose the change on plebiscite and we'd see mass chaos, etc. I'm fine with getting rid of it, although I'm sure the "Regional rights!!!!1111" people will raise some frivolous objection.

State registration isn't just a formality - it determines what region you are located in and puts you in the middle when it comes to changes in regional boundaries. This isn't a matter of regional rights but individual rights - one or two individuals in a certain state shouldn't be forced to move regions just because everyone else in the region wants them to. Now, if we inserted a clause that allowed folks to remain without any consequences, I would be more open to this.

[President Tyrion]

"State registration" in this game is only a formality and has no measurable impact/effect on gameplay. However, due to this section of the constitution, if there were to be some change in regional boundaries, we'd see people switch state to oppose the change on plebiscite and we'd see mass chaos, etc. I'm fine with getting rid of it, although I'm sure the "Regional rights!!!!1111" people will raise some frivolous objection.

State registration isn't just a formality - it determines what region you are located in and puts you in the middle when it comes to changes in regional boundaries. This isn't a matter of regional rights but individual rights - one or two individuals in a certain state shouldn't be forced to move regions just because everyone else in the region wants them to. Now, if we inserted a clause that allowed folks to remain without any consequences, I would be more open to this.

Why should that be a thing? States are only members of a region as a construct. We could eliminate them entirely for registration purposes and the game wouldn't change at all. I have the right to block any regional move right now, as the only member of New Mexico, and I can't fathom a way that would be fair. This isn't Animal Farm. Some people aren't more equal than others.

[tmthforu94]

"State registration" in this game is only a formality and has no measurable impact/effect on gameplay. However, due to this section of the constitution, if there were to be some change in regional boundaries, we'd see people switch state to oppose the change on plebiscite and we'd see mass chaos, etc. I'm fine with getting rid of it, although I'm sure the "Regional rights!!!!1111" people will raise some frivolous objection.

State registration isn't just a formality - it determines what region you are located in and puts you in the middle when it comes to changes in regional boundaries. This isn't a matter of regional rights but individual rights - one or two individuals in a certain state shouldn't be forced to move regions just because everyone else in the region wants them to. Now, if we inserted a clause that allowed folks to remain without any consequences, I would be more open to this.

Why should that be a thing? States are only members of a region as a construct. We could eliminate them entirely for registration purposes and the game wouldn't change at all. I have the right to block any regional move right now, as the only member of New Mexico, and I can't fathom a way that would be fair. This isn't Animal Farm. Some people aren't more equal than others.

If you are the only resident of New Mexico, I think you should have a say in what region New Mexico is in, that or have the option to remain in the prior region with no consequences. I don't see what is unreasonable about that.

And states have no meaning? Please, tell that to the IDS.

[President Tyrion]

"State registration" in this game is only a formality and has no measurable impact/effect on gameplay. However, due to this section of the constitution, if there were to be some change in regional boundaries, we'd see people switch state to oppose the change on plebiscite and we'd see mass chaos, etc. I'm fine with getting rid of it, although I'm sure the "Regional rights!!!!1111" people will raise some frivolous objection.

State registration isn't just a formality - it determines what region you are located in and puts you in the middle when it comes to changes in regional boundaries. This isn't a matter of regional rights but individual rights - one or two individuals in a certain state shouldn't be forced to move regions just because everyone else in the region wants them to. Now, if we inserted a clause that allowed folks to remain without any consequences, I would be more open to this.

Why should that be a thing? States are only members of a region as a construct. We could eliminate them entirely for registration purposes and the game wouldn't change at all. I have the right to block any regional move right now, as the only member of New Mexico, and I can't fathom a way that would be fair. This isn't Animal Farm. Some people aren't more equal than others.

If you are the only resident of New Mexico, I think you should have a say in what region New Mexico is in, that or have the option to remain in the prior region with no consequences. I don't see what is unreasonable about that.

Because I could create a regional island for my own personal benefit. Say the Pacific cedes to the Midwest. I could reject the move and theoretically the Pacific would be all mine. Really, it creates an incentive for me to approve all constitutional amendments on the matter and then at the last moment apply to stay in my region. That's obviously against the virtues of the game. Allowing someone more rights than another is not my concept of a fair game, nor is such approved obstructionism pragmatic.

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IDS, states have no meaning.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

With the objection removed, cloture and minimum debate has been waived. I can proceed with a final vote if such is desired.

I actually just meant I wouldn't object again if the UC were reintroduced, but whatever.  I usually don't like proceeding with a vote on a constitutional amendment with only a day of debate, but since it's just removing a clause and not adding new language, I don't really have a problem with it.   However, I will probably be voting nay.

I was not going to open the vote immediately anyway, shua. This just meant that I could open it immediately when such became desired. I am very considerate in my administration of the Senate, probably too much so some would say.

[tmthforu94]

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IDS, states have no meaning.

Maybe you should pay a little more attention to regional governments before making such assertions. The IDS recently approved creating districts for the legislature, an idea I think larger regions should also consider.

[President Tyrion]

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IDS, states have no meaning.

Maybe you should pay a little more attention to regional governments before making such assertions. The IDS recently approved creating districts for the legislature, an idea I think larger regions should also consider.

Those districts follow state lines out of convenience, not necessity.

[tmthforu94]

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IDS, states have no meaning.

Maybe you should pay a little more attention to regional governments before making such assertions. The IDS recently approved creating districts for the legislature, an idea I think larger regions should also consider.

Those districts follow state lines out of convenience, not necessity.

...but gives the states meaning. What state you choose to live in determines what district you live in.  You can't say states have no impact on the game when they do.

[Talleyrand]

Even if we are to assume that states have the potential to have meaning in this game, the rule that one can change state registration every 24 hours effectively voids that. Either we pass this or we make the time frame for changing state registration a lot stricter.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So shall I proceed with that final vote, or are amendments coming?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

A final vote is now open on the underly amendment ot the Constitution, Senators please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[TNF]

AYE