Deadly Ice storm turns Atlanta into frozen tundra

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I realize that it's poor form to laugh at other peoples' misery, but the simple fact is that you can't just can't rationalize Atlanta's insane response and utter seizing-up at two inches of snow by saying it's not the sort of weather they normally need to prepare for.  The fact of the matter is that Atlanta has built itself in such a way as to be non-resilient in the face of, really, any adversity, and has done so for shall we say less than noble reasons.

So, I'm sorry for all your suffering down there- but your region needs to own up to the fact that a lot of these wounds were self-inflicted.

1. It was ice, not snow, which makes a major difference, yet most people in this thread keep saying snow instead of ice.

2. With most natural disasters, you can make some kind of argument that they were self-inflicted.  Tornadoes don't have to destroy houses; they do because people weigh the costs and balances between the risk and spending the money to make a whole house out of the same material you do a safe room.  The disasters of Hurricane Katrina could've been avoided if New Orleans hadn't built its city below sea level.  The disasters of Hurricane Sandy could have been avoided with better construction.  The fact of the matter is that you can't just say that Atlanta should've had the ice mitigation techniques that municipalities in the north have.  This would require fleets of trucks, salt storage, and other materials that are not cost effective.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I realize that it's poor form to laugh at other peoples' misery, but the simple fact is that you can't just can't rationalize Atlanta's insane response and utter seizing-up at two inches of snow by saying it's not the sort of weather they normally need to prepare for.  The fact of the matter is that Atlanta has built itself in such a way as to be non-resilient in the face of, really, any adversity, and has done so for shall we say less than noble reasons.

So, I'm sorry for all your suffering down there- but your region needs to own up to the fact that a lot of these wounds were self-inflicted.

1. It was ice, not snow, which makes a major difference, yet most people in this thread keep saying snow instead of ice.

2. With most natural disasters, you can make some kind of argument that they were self-inflicted.  Tornadoes don't have to destroy houses; they do because people weigh the costs and balances between the risk and spending the money to make a whole house out of the same material you do a safe room.  The disasters of Hurricane Katrina could've been avoided if New Orleans hadn't built its city below sea level.  The disasters of Hurricane Sandy could have been avoided with better construction.  The fact of the matter is that you can't just say that Atlanta should've had the ice mitigation techniques that municipalities in the north have.  This would require fleets of trucks, salt storage, and other materials that are not cost effective.

I think TitD is referring to the fact that Atlanta is one of the most sprawling, auto-dependent metros in the country.

That was part of it, but he kinda mixed a whole bunch of reasons together, most of which aren't really that valid when you think about them.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I realize that it's poor form to laugh at other peoples' misery, but the simple fact is that you can't just can't rationalize Atlanta's insane response and utter seizing-up at two inches of snow by saying it's not the sort of weather they normally need to prepare for.  The fact of the matter is that Atlanta has built itself in such a way as to be non-resilient in the face of, really, any adversity, and has done so for shall we say less than noble reasons.

So, I'm sorry for all your suffering down there- but your region needs to own up to the fact that a lot of these wounds were self-inflicted.

1. It was ice, not snow, which makes a major difference, yet most people in this thread keep saying snow instead of ice.

2. With most natural disasters, you can make some kind of argument that they were self-inflicted.  Tornadoes don't have to destroy houses; they do because people weigh the costs and balances between the risk and spending the money to make a whole house out of the same material you do a safe room.  The disasters of Hurricane Katrina could've been avoided if New Orleans hadn't built its city below sea level.  The disasters of Hurricane Sandy could have been avoided with better construction.  The fact of the matter is that you can't just say that Atlanta should've had the ice mitigation techniques that municipalities in the north have.  This would require fleets of trucks, salt storage, and other materials that are not cost effective.

I think TitD is referring to the fact that Atlanta is one of the most sprawling, auto-dependent metros in the country.

That was part of it, but he kinda mixed a whole bunch of reasons together, most of which aren't really that valid when you think about them.

The problem in Atlanta was poor planning and development.  Had Atlanta been a dense city like New York City, there wouldn't be a problem.  Why?  Everyone would've caught the subway home... or just walked.

Instead the snow showed up early and everyone freaked out and got in the car and got on the freeway and created a classic gridlock.

I couldn't care less about the friction ratio of ice vs. packed snow. 

TitD is the guy who says "man these Krispy Kremes are great... they must use magic to taste so good!  Or just delicious fat."

And you're like

"Well, um... actually they used 150 grams of flour in each donut and when you study the reaction of yeast, salt, and complex starches and sugars it creates a distinct flav.. blah blah blah blah blah"

[Badger]

Sorry, South. Yes, it's sad people got stuck in their cars and schools, born on the highway, etc. BUT, the fact is these results over TWO INCHES OF SNOW AND A DUSTING OF ICE is absurd. The comparisons over heat or hurricaines: The north and east experience both without falling apart or suffering fatalities any worse than dear ol' Dixie.

This reaction to two inches of snow and a little ice is akin to the north calling a "heat advisory" for it getting over 85. Northerners aren't bemused at kids being stranded in school or on the highway, but because from our perspective Atlanta's "crisis" could've been solved by 50 midwestern bus drivers.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Sorry, South. Yes, it's sad people got stuck in their cars and schools, born on the highway, etc. BUT, the fact is these results over TWO INCHES OF SNOW AND A DUSTING OF ICE is absurd. The comparisons over heat or hurricaines: The north and east experience both without falling apart or suffering fatalities any worse than dear ol' Dixie.

This reaction to two inches of snow and a little ice is akin to the north calling a "heat advisory" for it getting over 85. Northerners aren't bemused at kids being stranded in school or on the highway, but because from our perspective Atlanta's "crisis" could've been solved by 50 midwestern bus drivers.

Ohio doesn't exactly have the best system either.  I personally find the use of Level 3 Snow Emergencies ridiculous and mostly unnecessary.  As for comparing this to calling a heat advisory for over 85, the impacts of an ice storm are a lot more significant than 85F temperatures.  I'm also not aware of any WFO who issues a heat advisory at 85F (the criteria are actually based on heat indices, not temperatures, but the humidity would have to be higher than 95% at 85F).

[Badger]

Sorry, South. Yes, it's sad people got stuck in their cars and schools, born on the highway, etc. BUT, the fact is these results over TWO INCHES OF SNOW AND A DUSTING OF ICE is absurd. The comparisons over heat or hurricaines: The north and east experience both without falling apart or suffering fatalities any worse than dear ol' Dixie.

This reaction to two inches of snow and a little ice is akin to the north calling a "heat advisory" for it getting over 85. Northerners aren't bemused at kids being stranded in school or on the highway, but because from our perspective Atlanta's "crisis" could've been solved by 50 midwestern bus drivers.

Ohio doesn't exactly have the best system either.  I personally find the use of Level 3 Snow Emergencies ridiculous and mostly unnecessary.  As for comparing this to calling a heat advisory for over 85, the impacts of an ice storm are a lot more significant than 85F temperatures.  I'm also not aware of any WFO who issues a heat advisory at 85F (the criteria are actually based on heat indices, not temperatures, but the humidity would have to be higher than 95% at 85F).

That's my point, Inks; no place up here is any more likely to declare a level-anything snow emergency over two inches plus a little ice then we would declare a heat advisory over 85 degree weather.

beyond that, it's the height of semantics to debate whether a two inch snow plus dusting of ice is the equivilent public safety risk as 85 degree heat vs (e.g.) 90. The point is the south's utter inability to handle minimal amounts of cold white stuff on the roads was absurd.

[7,052,770]

Sorry, South. Yes, it's sad people got stuck in their cars and schools, born on the highway, etc. BUT, the fact is these results over TWO INCHES OF SNOW AND A DUSTING OF ICE is absurd. The comparisons over heat or hurricaines: The north and east experience both without falling apart or suffering fatalities any worse than dear ol' Dixie.

This reaction to two inches of snow and a little ice is akin to the north calling a "heat advisory" for it getting over 85. Northerners aren't bemused at kids being stranded in school or on the highway, but because from our perspective Atlanta's "crisis" could've been solved by 50 midwestern bus drivers.

...  AGAIN, the South is hit by storms more powerful than Sandy (a category 1 hurricane) several times most years.  For example, Hurricane Isaac, another category 1 hurricane earlier that same year, hit Louisiana but did less than 5% of the economic $ damage.  You really think the comparison to hurricanes isn't valid?

And yet, despite all that, the South just pitched in to help NY and NJ, instead of mocking those areas for not being as well-prepared for hurricanes.  You didn't see a single post on this forum saying "LOL stupid North it was just a category 1!!!!"

[Hatman 🍁]

There's a world of difference between 2 inches of a snow and a category 1 hurricane for chrissake.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

There's a world of difference between 2 inches of a snow and a category 1 hurricane for chrissake.

That's absolutely true, and I wouldn't have used the analogy that Harry created, but let's remember it was ice that caused most of the problems, not snow.  Ice is a heck of a lot worse to deal with than snow.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Sorry, South. Yes, it's sad people got stuck in their cars and schools, born on the highway, etc. BUT, the fact is these results over TWO INCHES OF SNOW AND A DUSTING OF ICE is absurd. The comparisons over heat or hurricaines: The north and east experience both without falling apart or suffering fatalities any worse than dear ol' Dixie.

This reaction to two inches of snow and a little ice is akin to the north calling a "heat advisory" for it getting over 85. Northerners aren't bemused at kids being stranded in school or on the highway, but because from our perspective Atlanta's "crisis" could've been solved by 50 midwestern bus drivers.

...  AGAIN, the South is hit by storms more powerful than Sandy (a category 1 hurricane) several times most years.  For example, Hurricane Isaac, another category 1 hurricane earlier that same year, hit Louisiana but did less than 5% of the economic $ damage.  You really think the comparison to hurricanes isn't valid?

And yet, despite all that, the South just pitched in to help NY and NJ, instead of mocking those areas for not being as well-prepared for hurricanes.  You didn't see a single post on this forum saying "LOL stupid North it was just a category 1!!!!"

Actually the South, rather than pitching in, voted against Sandy aid.  Don't you remember that?

It's a bit rich to have you trying to school northerners on generosity when the flow of money is and always has been from us to you.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

We're so desperate for precipitation in California, that we'll take an ice storm.

[7,052,770]

Sorry, South. Yes, it's sad people got stuck in their cars and schools, born on the highway, etc. BUT, the fact is these results over TWO INCHES OF SNOW AND A DUSTING OF ICE is absurd. The comparisons over heat or hurricaines: The north and east experience both without falling apart or suffering fatalities any worse than dear ol' Dixie.

This reaction to two inches of snow and a little ice is akin to the north calling a "heat advisory" for it getting over 85. Northerners aren't bemused at kids being stranded in school or on the highway, but because from our perspective Atlanta's "crisis" could've been solved by 50 midwestern bus drivers.

...  AGAIN, the South is hit by storms more powerful than Sandy (a category 1 hurricane) several times most years.  For example, Hurricane Isaac, another category 1 hurricane earlier that same year, hit Louisiana but did less than 5% of the economic $ damage.  You really think the comparison to hurricanes isn't valid?

And yet, despite all that, the South just pitched in to help NY and NJ, instead of mocking those areas for not being as well-prepared for hurricanes.  You didn't see a single post on this forum saying "LOL stupid North it was just a category 1!!!!"

Actually the South, rather than pitching in, voted against Sandy aid.  Don't you remember that?

It's a bit rich to have you trying to school northerners on generosity when the flow of money is and always has been from us to you.

Wrong on both counts, unsurprisingly.  The voters against Sandy relief were the Tea Party assholes who are found all over the country.  Certainly not just the South.

Nobody disputes that the South gets more in federal funding than it gives, but when you look at private charity donations, the South always leads the way, and that's not even adjusting for the lower per capita incomes.

[7,052,770]

There's a world of difference between 2 inches of a snow and a category 1 hurricane for chrissake.

I'm sure most Canadians and Northerners would say a category 1 hurricane is a much bigger deal than a surprise snowstorm.  And most Southerners would find the snowstorm more daunting than a weak hurricane.

I think your point just proves mine -- regions can handle the weather they're used to, and they are completely unable to handle weak versions of weather they're not used to having.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Twin Cities did get hit with a hurricane style storm last summer actually: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=175270.0

[7,052,770]

The Twin Cities did get hit with a hurricane style storm last summer actually: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=175270.0

And how many Southern posters mocked Minneapolis for being unprepared or having more damage than a Southern city would under a similar storm?  0.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You read TitD's link?

[Hatman 🍁]

There's a world of difference between 2 inches of a snow and a category 1 hurricane for chrissake.

I'm sure most Canadians and Northerners would say a category 1 hurricane is a much bigger deal than a surprise snowstorm.  And most Southerners would find the snowstorm more daunting than a weak hurricane.

Really? So cat 1 hurricanes usually result in 0 death toll and minimal property damage in the south? Give me a break.

Also, we get at least 2 inche snow falls regularly throughout the winter (maybe 3-5 times a month?). I don't think you get hit by hurricanes that often. I think if you did, Mississippi would be even more of an unliveable hell hole than it currently is.

[7,052,770]

There's a world of difference between 2 inches of a snow and a category 1 hurricane for chrissake.

I'm sure most Canadians and Northerners would say a category 1 hurricane is a much bigger deal than a surprise snowstorm.  And most Southerners would find the snowstorm more daunting than a weak hurricane.

Really? So cat 1 hurricanes usually result in 0 death toll and minimal property damage in the south? Give me a break.

What???  Did I say that?  I just read over my posts and I don't feel like I even remotely implied that.

All I'm saying is, "Regions are well equipped to handle extreme weather that's common for the area.  The North can handle snow and ice storms without missing a beat.  The South has no choice but to absorb hurricanes every year.  However, when one of those weather events hits a region where it usually doesn't, even a weak example can wreak havoc.  For example, a relatively small snowstorm made Atlanta grind to a halt, and a relatively weak hurricane that hit NY and NJ turned into the 2nd costliest natural disaster in U.S. history.  Said snowstorm wouldn't have impacted a Northern city nearly as bad, and said hurricane wouldn't have had nearly the impact on a Southern city."

I can't for the life of me understand why that (obviously true? or not?) point bothers you so much.

[patrick1]

There's a world of difference between 2 inches of a snow and a category 1 hurricane for chrissake.

I'm sure most Canadians and Northerners would say a category 1 hurricane is a much bigger deal than a surprise snowstorm.  And most Southerners would find the snowstorm more daunting than a weak hurricane.

Really? So cat 1 hurricanes usually result in 0 death toll and minimal property damage in the south? Give me a break.

What???  Did I say that?  I just read over my posts and I don't feel like I even remotely implied that.

All I'm saying is, "Regions are well equipped to handle extreme weather that's common for the area.  The North can handle snow and ice storms without missing a beat.  The South has no choice but to absorb hurricanes every year.  However, when one of those weather events hits a region where it usually doesn't, even a weak example can wreak havoc.  For example, a relatively small snowstorm made Atlanta grind to a halt, and a relatively weak hurricane that hit NY and NJ turned into the 2nd costliest natural disaster in U.S. history.  Said snowstorm wouldn't have impacted a Northern city nearly as bad, and said hurricane wouldn't have had nearly the impact on a Southern city."

I can't for the life of me understand why that (obviously true? or not?) point bothers you so much.

Wind and category strength were a non factor- Sandy had +10 ft tidal surges and that is a problem anywhere.  Conversely, it was the ice that was the problem in Atlanta and not the snow at all.

[Brittain33]

Nobody disputes that the South gets more in federal funding than it gives, but when you look at private charity donations, the South always leads the way, and that's not even adjusting for the lower per capita incomes.

Private charity donations includes church donations, and no one would deny that the South has higher church attendance than the northeast and much (not all) of the west. But there isn't always a clear line from making donations to a religious group and literally helping people in need vs. supporting building maintenance, mission trips overseas, etc.  

[Ban my account ffs!]

Nobody disputes that the South gets more in federal funding than it gives, but when you look at private charity donations, the South always leads the way, and that's not even adjusting for the lower per capita incomes.

Private charity donations includes church donations, and no one would deny that the South has higher church attendance than the northeast and much (not all) of the west. But there isn't always a clear line from making donations to a religious group and literally helping people in need vs. supporting building maintenance, mission trips overseas, etc. 

We help people in need by electing politicians who make it their job to ensure the needy are looked after.  What is more humble?  Writing a check to the church?  Or paying taxes so that someone you will never know will receive the help they need?

Harry:  I don't doubt the south is filled with many wonderful people.  I have family down there... they're wonderful people and so are the people they know.

They still have crappy political views and don't know how to deal with snow.

[Badger]

Sorry, South. Yes, it's sad people got stuck in their cars and schools, born on the highway, etc. BUT, the fact is these results over TWO INCHES OF SNOW AND A DUSTING OF ICE is absurd. The comparisons over heat or hurricaines: The north and east experience both without falling apart or suffering fatalities any worse than dear ol' Dixie.

This reaction to two inches of snow and a little ice is akin to the north calling a "heat advisory" for it getting over 85. Northerners aren't bemused at kids being stranded in school or on the highway, but because from our perspective Atlanta's "crisis" could've been solved by 50 midwestern bus drivers.

...  AGAIN, the South is hit by storms more powerful than Sandy (a category 1 hurricane) several times most years.  For example, Hurricane Isaac, another category 1 hurricane earlier that same year, hit Louisiana but did less than 5% of the economic $ damage.  You really think the comparison to hurricanes isn't valid?

That's because the entire state of Louisiana isn't worth the real estate of 2 blocks of Midtown.